A REDVAN Driving Thread (Special Edition, with links)

[REDVAN]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Cool, care to expalin how it is that you know more about what speeds roads are safe at than say the guys who went to school for 4 years and make a living doing so?

On a side note, I'd like to know exactly where you draw the line.
Is it okay for Micael Schumacher to drive down deerfoot at 200 mph in his Ferrari? He's one of the best drivers in the world, why should anyone be able to tell him that he can't do that.

For the record yes I speed, but I don't delude myself claiming that it's safer or that I know better than the people who built the roads.

Here come the barbs. Ouch.

I'm not saying I am smarter, I am just saying that I have never been given a suitable explanation as to how speed limits are set. The best I've gotten is "people smarter than you set them."

To be fair, I don't pretend to be a genius. But I think I can understand a logical scientific reason. I would like it explained to me.

And it may in fact be true that I do know better than people who went to school for 4 years studying roads. That's because they might take the train to work and never drive, so they don't understand reality. Just because someone is educated doesn't make them smart.

Side note: Yes I think he should be allowed to do that. If he thinks the road is able to handle a vehicle going that speed, he can handle the vehicle at that speed, and the vehicle is safe going that speed, then why should he not?

For me, speeding has been safer than following and staying in a row. It has gotten me to where I need to go faster. It has saved me time, and my time is valuable as far as I am concerned. I'm sure I'm going to take some heat for this but... if I think my time is worth more to me than someone else's time is worth to me, so if I speed and get somewhere 2 minutes faster, and then it takes them 10 seconds longer to get where they are going, I could care less.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by REDVAN

Here come the barbs. Ouch.

I'm not saying I am smarter, I am just saying that I have never been given a suitable explanation as to how speed limits are set. The best I've gotten is "people smarter than you set them."

To be fair, I don't pretend to be a genius. But I think I can understand a logical scientific reason. I would like it explained to me.

And it may in fact be true that I do know better than people who went to school for 4 years studying roads. That's because they might take the train to work and never drive, so they don't understand reality. Just because someone is educated doesn't make them smart.

Side note: Yes I think he should be allowed to do that. If he thinks the road is able to handle a vehicle going that speed, he can handle the vehicle at that speed, and the vehicle is safe going that speed, then why should he not?

For me, speeding has been safer than following and staying in a row. It has gotten me to where I need to go faster. It has saved me time, and my time is valuable as far as I am concerned. I'm sure I'm going to take some heat for this but... if I think my time is worth more to me than someone else's time is worth to me, so if I speed and get somewhere 2 minutes faster, and then it takes them 10 seconds longer to get where they are going, I could care less.

Okay, most of that makes a little bit of sense. At least you admit it's impatience more than anything. Which is obviously the reason just about everyone speeds. It just bugs me when people claim otherwise.

However, I kind of doubt that just because you drive on roads you know more about then than the guys who design them.

You drive on a lot of bridges, care to try your hand at designing a few of those?
You fill your car with gas, want to give designing a refinery process a try?

The problem with people thinking they know better than the people that do these things is that they don't know what they don't know.
Sure they build in a safety factor because people are always going to speed, but that only works to a point and when people push it that's when things go wrong. Is that 20 over the limit going to get you killed on the #2? No of course not, but what about the guy with the Ferrari who decides he's safe to go 220? He's no different than you, but chances are at some point he's gonna run into trouble.

[CMPunk]

And how do you go about proving that you're capable of driving at excessive speeds? If you're allowed to drive above the limit, then everyone is, including all the idiots out there. So basically the problem doesn't change, there are still the same idiots on the road, the only difference is that they're going that much faster, thus causing much more damage

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Oh, I forgot to mention.
I think that it's perfectly safe for me to drive my 1972 Gremlin with a pizza cutter spare tire down memorial drive at 180 kph.
Should I be allowed to do that?
Let's not forget, it's usually the dumbest most unqualified people who think it's safe to do the dumbest things.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Or you're going 10% faster and you hit lights red that you'd otherwise sail through.
Let's stick to the all else being equal and not speculate on the effect of relatively random events.

It's not really random though. I agree that racing from one red light to another doesn't get you anywhere fast, and in fact disrupts traffic. However, when you're looking at a green light, unless you're miles away there are only two possible outcomes: either you make the light, or it turns red. There's no it turns red, then turns green again. Also, some lights are synched with others. I know for instance that turning left from 14th southbound onto Anderson, you need to be hasty to make the light at Elbow because it's synched for the people coming from Anderson.

[Philly06Cup]

Whatever happened to the "remove playground zones" debate? I find those to be more annoying that the 100km/h limit on Deerfoot. About 95% of the time I drive through playground zones, no children present. Hell, most of the time, there aren't any people present. Makes no sense for me to slow down 20km/h to accomodate nobody. We have way too many playground zones, and some reports have purported they don't make the roads any safer for anyone. Several playground zones should be abolished; or at least reconfigured to say "30km/h when children are present, ignore otherwise"

[REDVAN]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Oh, I forgot to mention.
I think that it's perfectly safe for me to drive my 1972 Gremlin with a pizza cutter spare tire down memorial drive at 180 kph.
Should I be allowed to do that?
Let's not forget, it's usually the dumbest most unqualified people who think it's safe to do the dumbest things.

And this is the problem. I've said in previous threads about driving that I think I am a decent driver. Problem is that everyone thinks they are awesome and there is no way to prove who is and who isn't. Plus, even if you do prove it, how do you deal with it?

I could be the best driver in town, but there is no way I can get special privileges. And you certainly can't restrict people who aren't good drivers. Oh wait, they do that with young people (which I don't agree with- if you do it for young you should do it for old. Then it becomes a slippery slope, so let's forget it).

Also I keep good care of my vehicle. I am not a dumbass when driving, I just like go to fast. I think I have good driving skills. For every one like me (which I am sure lots who replied to this thread are also good drivers) there is someone who is average or WORSE. Think about how BAD the average driver is. Then think about the half that are wose than average... Unfortunately, they have the same rights on the road as those of us who actually are average or better!

[REDVAN]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Okay, most of that makes a little bit of sense. ...

but what about the guy with the Ferrari who decides he's safe to go 220? He's no different than you, but chances are at some point he's gonna run into trouble.

Why do we get to say that he shouldn't go 220 though? If it interferes with no one, or he is a capable driver, even if the road is not designed for that. It's his own choice.

For reference sake, I have maxed out a speedometer (and gone significantly past it) at 240 km/h on highway 2. I felt scared, so I slowed down. Even though the car went that fast, it was not safe. It was safe to do about 150-160, IMO, which is what I did. I didn't cut anyone off, I didn't pass anyone on the shoulder, and I didn't interfere with anyone else's trip. Why should I not be able to do that?

I guess it comes down to what is posted in one of the above posts- some people don't have the brain power to correctly make these decisions. Some don't have the driving ability. Some don't have the know-how or common sense. So for that reason, the rest of us can't get those rights. I'm just frustrated by the lowest common denominator ruining my life (in general too), and by complaining about driving I can vent a little bit!

[REDVAN]

Just for reference...

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

OK, I'll bite. You're right, many people speed, but I think a difference is that I don't get upset when people are in the left lane aren't going as quickly as I want them to. Logically, I know that speeding saves maybe 3-5 minutes on a crosstown Deerfoot trip, so when I think of the potential costs (speeding ticket, possible accident, increased gas costs) and weigh them against the benefits (arriving maybe 5 minutes sooner than I would have), it doesn't seem worth it.

Christ. I go out for 7 hours and a driving thread gets to 28 replies in my absence.

As for the post quoted, I'm kinda amused at how you (Antithesis) managed to sound so condescending about going a decent speed on Deerfoot. And for the record, you're picking on the wrong guy about left-laning.
3-5 minutes is not all that will be saved. Sanity counts for something. Don't tell me that you can bear to be stuck behind three jackarses going the same speed on Deerfoot or on any other road in the city. Please don't tell me that you've never gotten annoyed by some granny driver in front of you.
Please don't take that BS high road where you're perfectly happy going 100 kph or 5 or 10 or 20 K under the limit because "after all, I'll only save 5 minutes on the other end". Because if so, then I'm pretty sure that you are the granny driver that I really wish would stop being so self absorbed and just move over a lane and let the rest of us cruise at normal speed.

[Antithesis]

Wow, a lot of assumptions there 4x4, and it was by no means my intent to sound condescending, in fact, I'm trying for the exact opposite, I'm trying to be open minded about an argument that I don't understand.

I actually understand your argument about being upset with people who block the left lane more than I understand the speeding argument. I can see how you think I'm picking on you so that's poor choice of words on my part.

Of course I won't tell you that I don't get annoyed when there's a granny or some jackarses in front of me, but I guess I meant 'upset' more in terms of getting on CP and starting a ranting thread about it

And why is my "high road" argument BS? I pay attention when I drive, so if my poorly-worded remark about left-laning is no good, then your assumption here is as well. I also think I am a courteous driver. I go out of my way to make sure I am not impeding traffic with my desire to go the speed limit - I get out of the left lane on Deerfoot as quickly as I can and I don't move in to it until I have enough time to get past the guy in front of me without causing much trouble. As well, your assumption that I am happy going "5, 10, or even 20" below the speed limit is incorrect here, I drive at the speed limit, just not over it TOO often.

Is it so hard to believe that I've looked in what I consider a logical way about this, weighing out the pros and cons of speeding, and decided it wasn't worthwhile for me?

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Cool, care to expalin how it is that you know more about what speeds roads are safe at than say the guys who went to school for 4 years and make a living doing so?

Just to expand on what has already been said on this one, speeds are set to factor in all drivers and all abilities. For example before my grandfather passed away he stopped driving in the city. If he was going to Winnipeg to visit my parents we would go out and meet him at a coffee shop outside of town, and somebody would drive his car in for him. Not all drivers do this, and continue to drive.

It just boggles the mind that a 10 minute test I took over 20 years ago still qualifies me to operate a 2 tonne vehicle. Never mind people like my grandfather who never took a driving test in his life.

What we should be doing to start with is introducing manditory testing; make sure that people in fact know the rules of the road, and how to drive a car. We all know people who are clueless about rules of the road, and without derailing this thread we all see people doing stupid things behind the wheel that they assume is allowed. Myself I had to perform a task on my driving test in Manitoba that is illegal in Alberta.

The first step to making the roads safer, and then possibly looking at raising speed limits is to introduce testing. Every 5 years sounds right- alternate tests so that every 10 years you end up taking both tests.

And while we are at it, make vision testing another part of that. The last time any DMV tested my vision was when I was 15. I know a lot of people who didn't need glasses as a teenager but need them as adults.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Wow, a lot of assumptions there 4x4, and it was by no means my intent to sound condescending, in fact, I'm trying for the exact opposite, I'm trying to be open minded about an argument that I don't understand.

I actually understand your argument about being upset with people who block the left lane more than I understand the speeding argument. I can see how you think I'm picking on you so that's poor choice of words on my part.

Of course I won't tell you that I don't get annoyed when there's a granny or some jackarses in front of me, but I guess I meant 'upset' more in terms of getting on CP and starting a ranting thread about it

And why is my "high road" argument BS? I pay attention when I drive, so if my poorly-worded remark about left-laning is no good, then your assumption here is as well. I also think I am a courteous driver. I go out of my way to make sure I am not impeding traffic with my desire to go the speed limit - I get out of the left lane on Deerfoot as quickly as I can and I don't move in to it until I have enough time to get past the guy in front of me without causing much trouble. As well, your assumption that I am happy going "5, 10, or even 20" below the speed limit is incorrect here, I drive at the speed limit, just not over it TOO often.

Is it so hard to believe that I've looked in what I consider a logical way about this, weighing out the pros and cons of speeding, and decided it wasn't worthwhile for me?

Sorry man... Didn't mean to come down so harsh. Last night was....well, lets just say that I think I misread what you wrote.
After work today, I'll read this whole thread. In the meantime, just wanted to apologize for being a dick.

[REDVAN]

Thanks for the good opinions and constructive posts in this thread this far everyone. That is probably why it's not exploded into a crazy driving thread, because we're disagreeing but remaining civil and constructive.

And that is an excellent idea Ken, it might help solve some of the problem of bad drivers, plus it would certainly reduce the number of drivers, which can't hurt. But if you don't mind me asking, what is this illegal task?

edit: how many thanks do I get per day? I think I used them all up in my own thread!

[habernac]

Originally Posted by REDVAN

And this is the problem. I've said in previous threads about driving that I think I am a decent driver. Problem is that everyone thinks they are awesome and there is no way to prove who is and who isn't. Plus, even if you do prove it, how do you deal with it?

and there's your reason for posted speed limits.

[GreenLantern]

And its drivers like this that think everyone around them is wrong and they are perfect that are usually the worst drivers out there. Maybe not technique wise but they need to ride someones ass who is going slow and then BLAST past them at the first possible chance makes them look even stupider than the idiot changing lanes in an intersection.

I can't stand people who sit there and try to tell me they are not bad drivers and everyone else around them is.

[smoothessence]

this explains a lot of the boneheadedness right there

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by smoothessence

this explains a lot of the boneheadedness right there

Right where? The above post, redvan's comments, the entire thread?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Christ. I go out for 7 hours and a driving thread gets to 28 replies in my absence.

As for the post quoted, I'm kinda amused at how you (Antithesis) managed to sound so condescending about going a decent speed on Deerfoot. And for the record, you're picking on the wrong guy about left-laning.
3-5 minutes is not all that will be saved. Sanity counts for something. Don't tell me that you can bear to be stuck behind three jackarses going the same speed on Deerfoot or on any other road in the city. Please don't tell me that you've never gotten annoyed by some granny driver in front of you.
Please don't take that BS high road where you're perfectly happy going 100 kph or 5 or 10 or 20 K under the limit because "after all, I'll only save 5 minutes on the other end". Because if so, then I'm pretty sure that you are the granny driver that I really wish would stop being so self absorbed and just move over a lane and let the rest of us cruise at normal speed.

Preach it! Seriously, if Canada instated a law where by citizens get one free murder in their lifetime, I would honestly get stuck behind someone going 95 or even 99 in the left lane on deerfoot, get into the shoulder lane, pull up beside them, smile and wave, then blow their head off, then calmly get back in the left lane and resume my safe driving at 120km/hr.

[taco.vidal]

And then a driver who is safely driving at 130km/h comes up behind, gets annoyed, and uses his free murder.

Originally Posted by flameswin

Preach it! Seriously, if Canada instated a law where by citizens get one free murder in their lifetime, I would honestly get stuck behind someone going 95 or even 99 in the left lane on deerfoot, get into the shoulder lane, pull up beside them, smile and wave, then blow their head off, then calmly get back in the left lane and resume my safe driving at 120km/hr.