Suggestions for fish for a fish tank? - Updated! Got fish, now a fish question

[killer_carlson]

go to www.albertaaquatica.com and ask this exact same question there and you'll get some great answers. A lot of the independent pet store owners post on there and your son will also be able to get some great photos.\

Kevin Guy is bang on about cycling your tank - problem is your son won't want to wait (hell, I don't and I'm over 30).

Some advice would be not to let him name any of the fish for the first few months because you'll inevitably end up with some pretty good mortality/turnover.

[photon]

Originally Posted by KevanGuy

Yeah, I wouldn't mix Cichlids with other fish, you are asking for trouble there. But if you want Cichlids , I'd recommend a male and female cribensis. They make cool borrows in the tank and have live babies. They are good parents though and will defend their young, so, not really a community type fish.

Most types of tetras are also good starter fish. They are relatively easy to keep and don't really fight with other fish. Neon or cardinal tetras are cool, kids will like the colours. Oh, and danios are cool, extremely easy to keep, super cheap and very active. I always have danios in my tanks.

Cool, yeah danios were neat, he liked them at the store because if you wave your hand in front of the tank they all move in unison in response.

Originally Posted by Bagor

Is it true you have to have the thing running for a couple weeks before you can introduce the fish (to allow bacteria to build up) or can you just dump them in?

Do some reading on "nitrogen cycle", you'll see why it'll be stressful for the fish right away until you build up the bacteria.

http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Beginning_Fishkeeping

However I've been reading about products which apparently have all the right bacteria in a bottle ready to go so you can establish your tank right away rather than go through the long cycling process.

http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Bacte...rcial_Bacteria
http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Bacte...o_they_work%3F

Do you introduce them in 2s (for the same reason). i.e. add 2, then another 2 a week later and so on

They usually say that because the amount of bacteria you have is balanced against the amount of waste the fish produce, so if you put in too many fish at once the bacteria aren't there to compensate right away.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by LGA

My suggestion would actually be to get a 45+ starter kit and get African cichlids. I used to breed them, they come in a variety of colours (I especially love the Lake Malawi cichlids), the water in Calgary is fantastic for them, not sure if it's still the same but Calgary water used to have a pH of around 8.0, which makes the water a little hard for quite a few species of fish.

The Lake Malawi cichlids also have a ton of very interesting habits, things like digging out nests in the substrate, their breeding habits, and just their living habits (Lake Malawi has a ton of caves and other rocky structures). Personally they are my favourite types of fish.

If you are set on a 20 Gallon tank I'd suggest getting a bunch of community fish, personally I like to pick a spot in the world and build a tank towards that environment so that you can cater the tank to the needs of the fish. You've gotta be careful though, as I said earlier Calgary water is a bit hard, so you're going to want to get a pH buffer to lower that pH to around 7.

If you've got any specific questions just go ahead and ask.

+1

African Cichlids are awesome, and Calgary water is well-suited to them. I have about 25 in a 75 gallon tank. Very colorful, and generally peaceful. How they mate and rear fry is interesting.

We have a great store in Calgary - Gold's Aquariums on 17th Ave SE - specializing in Cichlids.

They generally recommend you get two females for every male of a species (to reduce harrassment of the females). Try to get groups of six (4 F and 2 M) - males will "color-up" better when they have a rival. Cichlids do not need plants - just lots of rocks. In fact, they will destroy plants. They can be expensive, but they do live for a long time.

http://www.cichlids.ca/

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/index.php



Re: cycling your tank - very important before you add fish - some fish stores will give you a scoop of sludge to get your biological filter started. I'm skeptical that Cycle does anything - I've seen some research that indicates it really does not help.

An aquarium can be a a lot of work - you really should change the water every week (20-25%), and this takes me about one hour. The filter needs to be maintained every three months.

Don't feed fish very much. They only need a couple of pinches every morning and evening. One day a week they should not be fed anything.

You might add a pleco (catfish) to eat algae off the glass.

Rule of thumb - one inch of fish per gallon. ex. 25 X 3" fish is enough for a 75 gallon tank. You could add a bit more if you do frequent water changes. Make sure the surface is sufficiently agitated to allow for oxygen exchange.

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by KevanGuy

Mollies are always a good choice for a beginner. Plus then tend to breed fairly easily so that can be neat for kids to see the babies grow up.

I find Mollies fairly suceptible to ick, which is common in a beginner tank

[photon]

Alright, went ahead and got 5 danios; my son liked them and they were pretty cheap so if I screw it up and they all die it's not that bad.

I got some stuff called Stability which is supposed to have all the right bacteria in spores (couldn't find the live stuff), and people claim to have cycled their tanks in 24 hours with the stuff. Skeptical but figured I'd try it.

The nitrite and ammonia levels are still at zero a day and half after putting the fish in the tank, so I'd say that's a good sign.

The PH level is high, reads 8 (though hasn't changed since I put them in)! High enough that that made me go to Gold's (thanks troutman, much closer to Chestermere than Picies!) to get some PH adjust stuff but the guy there said not to worry about it, they'll be fine. Only if I was breeding them, which I'm not really interested in.

So one other question about fish behaviour.. I got 5 fish, and it looks like its 4 males and 1 female. Two of the males seem to spend a LOT of time chasing the female around, the other two males go off on their own (so much for schooling, though there's only 5). Should I get another female? I remember reading somewhere that for some if there's not enough females the males are too agitated.

Eventually I'll get probably another 5 danios, then find something else to compliment them (a red fish my son says), and fill it out with some algae eaters, I'd like to keep the load low so I if I miss a tank change by a few days it's not the end of the world.

[KevanGuy]

Originally Posted by photon

So one other question about fish behaviour.. I got 5 fish, and it looks like its 4 males and 1 female. Two of the males seem to spend a LOT of time chasing the female around, the other two males go off on their own (so much for schooling, though there's only 5). Should I get another female? I remember reading somewhere that for some if there's not enough females the males are too agitated.

I wouldn't worry about it.

[photon]

Cool ok, my son says they're playing tag so he likes watching them swim around.

[LGA]

Originally Posted by photon

Cool ok, my son says they're playing tag so he likes watching them swim around.

I'd just keep an eye out on them, if the female starts to look a little distressed it may be wise to get a few more females. But if everythings going alright I wouldn't do anything.

[killer_carlson]

the danios are a good choice for starter fish.

[Deegee]

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

I find Mollies fairly suceptible to ick, which is common in a beginner tank

I think Mollies are a brackish fish anyways?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brackish_water_aquarium

[KevanGuy]

Originally Posted by Deegee

I think Mollies are a brackish fish anyways?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brackish_water_aquarium

Hrmm, I know when I kept them in the past they weren't in brackish water. Danios were a better choice anyway, cheaper and even lower maintenance.

[sclitheroe]

Personally I would try and stay away from chemical supplements to the tank as much as possible. They are expensive and hard to dose accurately in smaller tanks. Chlorine remover is one exception.

The tank supplements that are the worst, imho, are the ones that claim to remove the need for partial water changes for weeks or months on end. Tetra makes one, I'm sure there are others out there. There is no substitute for regular partial water changes, good filtration, and not overfeeding to keep the tank healthy.

I'd even stay away from carbon and ammonia reducing filter inserts if at all possible. Again, they are expensive, they become a substitute for water changes, and they cause changes to water chemistry as they are added/wear out/removed

What you ultimately want is fish that will thrive with the local water, and that have stable water conditions. In the wild, fish live in an enormous body of water relative to fish tanks, and the water conditions don't change dramatically. You want to accomplish the same thing by reducing the chemicals you introduce into the water, doing weekly partial (30%) changes, and not allowing a lot of fish and food waste to build up by vacuuming the gravel when you do the water changes.

I doubt any chemical/biological supplement is going to really speed up the colonization of nitrifying bacteria, other than borrowing a filter insert from an established tank. That said, I wouldn't worry about it much, as Danios are super hardy fish. They are often used as cycle-starters, to kick start the entire bacterial filtration process before more sensitive fish are introduced.

Also, about algae eaters - they won't for the most part. Pleco's are very neat looking fish, in an ugly way, and I love them, but they don't eat a lot of algae, they eat plant matter mostly (try giving them some blanched zuccinni and watch how much they eat!). Pleco's also like to have some wood in the tank to graze on, for fibre, I think.

Some of the other sucker mouth fish like the so-called Chinese Algae Eater, or the Flying Fox, will become very aggressive over time, and will start to scrape scales off your other fish as they get larger (the danio's won't get that big, but it happens, trust me)

Algae is a symptom of too much dissolved organic material in the tank, or too much direct sunlight. Not overfeeding, and proper water changes are the way to go.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by photon

Alright, went ahead and got 5 danios; my son liked them and they were pretty cheap so if I screw it up and they all die it's not that bad.

I got some stuff called Stability which is supposed to have all the right bacteria in spores (couldn't find the live stuff), and people claim to have cycled their tanks in 24 hours with the stuff. Skeptical but figured I'd try it.

The nitrite and ammonia levels are still at zero a day and half after putting the fish in the tank, so I'd say that's a good sign.

The nitrite and ammonia will rise now that you have added the fish - it will keep climbing until it spikes once your biological filter is sufficient (your fish might not survive the spike). I don't think you can cycle a tank in 24 hours.

Nitrogen Cycle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquarium#Nitrogen_cycle



New aquaria often have problems associated with the nitrogen cycle due to insufficient number of beneficial bacteria, known as "New Tank Syndrome". Therefore new tanks have to be matured before stocking them with fish. There are three basic approaches to this: the "fishless cycle" the "silent cycle" and "slow growth".

The total cycling time for most aquariums at 78-80 degrees F. is about thirty days

[photon]

Thanks sclitheroe, makes sense. I'm not using the Stability or chemicals in lieu of partial water changes or anything like that, just using as it has the bacteria the tank needs in more "ready to go" state.. basically rather than waiting for existing bacteria to grow and divide to reach the right level, it's introducing some every day to get to that proper level quicker. Accelerating the cycling process, and from what I've read of people using it it seems to work.

But I agree, I don't want to have to chemically maintain the right levels of things myself, best to have the tank do it all naturally, and do the water changes to keep the nitrate levels in check. I have a hose with a gravel vaccuum for when I do the changes.

One thing I noticed though is the flake food doesn't stay on the top very long; it quickly gets sucked into the downcurrent from the filter. The fish grab it on its way down, but it only take 2 minutes from putting the food in before pretty much all of it is near the bottom of the tank. Is this a problem, danios aren't bottom feeders are they? Will they still eat it, or are my fish going to be hungry and I'm going to have problems with tons of uneaten food at the bottom of the tank?

EDIT: For cycling in 24 hours, I've talked with a few people who've done it with a large tank, they say the key is getting the right bacteria in place at the same time. SafeStart is an example of one.

http://theaquariumwiki.com/SafeStart

[Bagor]

Photon, How are your Danios doing and your nitrite and ammonia levels?

Originally Posted by troutman

I don't think you can cycle a tank in 24 hours.
The nitrite and ammonia will rise now that you have added the fish - it will keep climbing until it spikes once your biological filter is sufficient (your fish might not survive the spike). I don't think you can cycle a tank in 24 hours.


The total cycling time for most aquariums at 78-80 degrees F. is about thirty days

I'm confused here. Where do the Nitrospira originally come from if you were to break the tank in by waiting it out? Are they present in tap water? Also, I was under the impression that the cycle doesn't start until fish are introduced. By introducing the Nitrospira in increased numbers aren't you just speeding up the colonization process?

Couple of questions. Am I correct in presuming that when the water goes through the filter and re-enters the tank by the little mini-waterfall sorta process that it is oxygenated at the same time? If so, when would you need a pump?

Also, re. underwater decor. Would it be considered sacrilege if I placed my Iginla McFarlane figure in with the fishies?

I'm hoping to just leave the box out from Santa, set it up on Xmas day and then get a few fish into a couple days later.

[Byrns]

Originally Posted by troutman

+1

African Cichlids are awesome, and Calgary water is well-suited to them. I have about 25 in a 75 gallon tank. Very colorful, and generally peaceful. How they mate and rear fry is interesting.

We have a great store in Calgary - Gold's Aquariums on 17th Ave SE - specializing in Cichlids.

They generally recommend you get two females for every male of a species (to reduce harrassment of the females). Try to get groups of six (4 F and 2 M) - males will "color-up" better when they have a rival. Cichlids do not need plants - just lots of rocks. In fact, they will destroy plants. They can be expensive, but they do live for a long time.

http://www.cichlids.ca/

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/index.php



Re: cycling your tank - very important before you add fish - some fish stores will give you a scoop of sludge to get your biological filter started. I'm skeptical that Cycle does anything - I've seen some research that indicates it really does not help.

An aquarium can be a a lot of work - you really should change the water every week (20-25%), and this takes me about one hour. The filter needs to be maintained every three months.

Don't feed fish very much. They only need a couple of pinches every morning and evening. One day a week they should not be fed anything.

You might add a pleco (catfish) to eat algae off the glass.

Rule of thumb - one inch of fish per gallon. ex. 25 X 3" fish is enough for a 75 gallon tank. You could add a bit more if you do frequent water changes. Make sure the surface is sufficiently agitated to allow for oxygen exchange.

I personally gave up on Cichilds a while ago (except for the single Angelfish I have with my community tank). I got tired of seeing them beat the crap out of each other, and when they weren't doing that they were busy hiding in the rocks.

I now have a tank full of Tetras. They don't beat on anyone.

[LGA]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Photon, How are your Danios doing and your nitrite and ammonia levels?



I'm confused here. Where do the Nitrospira originally come from if you were to break the tank in by waiting it out? Are they present in tap water? Also, I was under the impression that the cycle doesn't start until fish are introduced. By introducing the Nitrospira in increased numbers aren't you just speeding up the colonization process?

Couple of questions. Am I correct in presuming that when the water goes through the filter and re-enters the tank by the little mini-waterfall sorta process that it is oxygenated at the same time? If so, when would you need a pump?

Also, re. underwater decor. Would it be considered sacrilege if I placed my Iginla McFarlane figure in with the fishies?

I'm hoping to just leave the box out from Santa, set it up on Xmas day and then get a few fish into a couple days later.

I can answer your water oxygenation process. The water gets oxygenated when the water comes out of the filter it disturbs the water surface allowing oxygen to mix in. That's why fish will start suffocating in a still tank (save for certain types of fish which can actually breath atmospheric oxygen). You just need to make sure the surface of your tank is getting adequately disturbed, you don't want a still water surface.

Another big problem I used to find about my tanks was that when I first started I wasn't matching the temperature of the water I was changing into the tank with the temperature of the tank and the fish were getting shocked from this. I'd just be careful with the temperature of the water you are changing into the tank, make sure it's within the same range.

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by Byrns

I personally gave up on Cichilds a while ago (except for the single Angelfish I have with my community tank). I got tired of seeing them beat the crap out of each other, and when they weren't doing that they were busy hiding in the rocks.

I now have a tank full of Tetras. They don't beat on anyone.

Haha, I hear you...I had one batch of cichlids that were so ferocious with one another that it was stressful being in the room with the tank. They are tough too, they can keep that kind of aggression level going for a long, long time and not croak.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

Haha, I hear you...I had one batch of cichlids that were so ferocious with one another that it was stressful being in the room with the tank. They are tough too, they can keep that kind of aggression level going for a long, long time and not croak.

My cichlids are peaceful - mostly Malawi peacocks etc. The guy at Gold's can recommend a good non-agressive mix. If you don't mind frequent water changes, larger schools also make them more comfortable.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Photon, How are your Danios doing and your nitrite and ammonia levels?

They seem to be quite happy. They still seem to travel in two groups, two that follow the female around and the other two males off on their own. When it's cycled I'll probably get a few more of each to even things out and hopefully get the to school together more.

As for the levels, I didn't test last night but it's all been zero so far! It's a 20 gallon tank and only 5 fish.. and have been using the Stability product to introduce more of the right kind of bacteria.. so I'm anxious to see if the levels will actually spike like they would have if I hadn't used it.

I'm confused here. Where do the Nitrospira originally come from if you were to break the tank in by waiting it out? Are they present in tap water? Also, I was under the impression that the cycle doesn't start until fish are introduced. By introducing the Nitrospira in increased numbers aren't you just speeding up the colonization process?

I would imagine that its in tap water, on the gravel, etc.. and on fish you introduce too I'm sure. I thought it was pretty common stuff?

Anyway that's the theory, the cycle can't really start until the fish are there because there's nothing producing ammonia and nitrites.. the existing bacteria that just happen to be there would consume the existing nitrites and then that's it. Fish produce new wastes which feed the bacteria.

So to cycle in 24 hours, if you introduce the fish, and enough bacteria so that they consume the amount of waste being produced, then you've cycled your tank. That's what I've read people being able to do, unfortunately I couldn't find any live bacteria to purchase so I went with the stuff that's dormant and only went with a small load of fish.

Originally Posted by LGA

I can answer your water oxygenation process. The water gets oxygenated when the water comes out of the filter it disturbs the water surface allowing oxygen to mix in. That's why fish will start suffocating in a still tank (save for certain types of fish which can actually breath atmospheric oxygen). You just need to make sure the surface of your tank is getting adequately disturbed, you don't want a still water surface.

Not necessarily, even still water will have some amount of oxygen exchange, it's just not as much, so you'd have to reduce the amount of fish. That's why they say it's not only the # of gallons in a tank that determine the # of fish, but the shape of the tank too.. a tank with a larger surface area exposed to the air will support more fish.

(http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/be...a/fishcalc.htm)

Another big problem I used to find about my tanks was that when I first started I wasn't matching the temperature of the water I was changing into the tank with the temperature of the tank and the fish were getting shocked from this. I'd just be careful with the temperature of the water you are changing into the tank, make sure it's within the same range.

I was going to ask about this, how do people usually do it? Just try and get the right temperature of water from the tap and let it sit for a day to reach room temperature first? Mixing it with warm water from the hot water tank doesn't seem like a good idea (more minerals in there).