Still believe in the death Penalty?

[tjinaz]

Why is the life of a murderer worth more than a victim?

If it can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, then put them down. They showed no mercy in taking life why should any be given them and why should they continue to be a burden on society by spending their life in prison. Even in prison they have life, which is more than they gave their victims.

What is to keep them from killing again in prison? They are likely already in for life anyway.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

What does it cost to feed and shelter a murderer for life as opposed to the cost of a execution? all that money could be used for the better.

I see, so now we're going to start placing a monetary value on life.

Again, I understand people's arguments in favour of capital punishment, but to my way of thinking, it's barbaric and uncivilized and as a society we should constantly be seeking to find ways to improve ourselves. For all the "weeding out the deviant and dangerous" arguments, capital punishment has never been shown to be an effective deterrent, and is nothing more than lazy vengeance.

We are better than that.

[fatso]

Originally Posted by tjinaz

Why is the life of a murderer worth more than a victim?

If it can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, then put them down. They showed no mercy in taking life why should any be given them and why should they continue to be a burden on society by spending their life in prison. Even in prison they have life, which is more than they gave their victims.

What is to keep them from killing again in prison? They are likely already in for life anyway.

No one thinks the life of the murderer is worth more than then victim. I doubt anyone has ever said that.

What would be proof beyond a shadow of a doubt? What would be 100% incontrovertible evidence? Does that even exist? Think about the 'beyond a reasonable doubt' standard prior to DNA evidence. How many mistakes resulted from that? And who knows... maybe something else will come up after DNA evidence. After all, it's not just what DNA evidence notes, but how it's used at trial that matters.

And where do you draw the line at what's appropriate for the death penalty? Serial killers? One-offs? Crimes of passion? Reckless, criminal negligence?

Pro-capital punishment types like to paint the anti-capital punishment types as bleeding heart liberals who are totally out of touch with victim suffering. I think most of us don't give a rat's ass about murderers and don't really care if they live or die. The point for many of us is two-fold: 1. there must be an ethical stance against murder - even state-sponsored murder to ever truly achieve justice and 2. any system of capital punishment will involve human decision-making and is thus simply too flawed to ever implement it without mistake. I'd rather lock up all the loonies for life and bear the economic cost then risk ever killing an innocent individual.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

I don't have any numbers to back it up. But I think executing a prisoner is more expensive than keeping him incarcerated for the rest of his life. When you factor in all the lawyers and appeals, it takes decades to execute somebody. That can't be cheap.

Edit: Boblobla beat me to it.

And this is the one problem with the current Death Penalty Process, its inefficient. It actually goes against the criminals rights concerning cruel and unusual punishment. They could probably streamline the process in terms of forcing the Lawyer to file all appeals at the same time to a special death penalty specialized panel of judges who can directly deal with all appeals in one shot.

Currently Lawyers file one appeal after the other at multiple court levels in the hopes of getting one to stick most of the times to just get a delay in the execution of the sentence while they file other motions hoping they stick.

There should be an assumption of ineffective council and a re-examination of the court proceedings immediately and automatically following the pronouncement of the death penalty.

In theory they should be able to find a way to commence the sentence within a year of a guilty verdict.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by driveway

I see, so now we're going to start placing a monetary value on life.

Again, I understand people's arguments in favour of capital punishment, but to my way of thinking, it's barbaric and uncivilized and as a society we should constantly be seeking to find ways to improve ourselves. For all the "weeding out the deviant and dangerous" arguments, capital punishment has never been shown to be an effective deterrent, and is nothing more than lazy vengeance.

We are better than that.

Well even though we are discussing it. Reality is it won't happen again in Canada. Way to controversal of a subject, I can't see any elected government risking bringing it back.

[Jason14h]

Bring back the Gallows!

[TheyCallMeBruce]

We should have just catapulted him into sea.

[North East Goon]

This, like the pro-choice argument is just too hot of topic to dismiss another person's belief's. I dont think my stance as pro-capital punishment could ever be swayed by the other side and vice versa for the other side. For a society it comes down to what the majority wants and be happy with the decision.

[jolinar of malkshor]

What about this?

Curtis Osborne (died 4 June 2008) was an American convicted murderer on death row in Georgia. He was from Spalding County, Georgia.[1] He murdered two people in 1990.[1] Johnny Mostiler, his court-appointed attorney, allegedly neglected to inform Osborne that the prosecutor had offered him life sentence in exchange for a plea bargain, declaring "The little deserves the death penalty."[2][3][4][5] Osborne's case for clemency was championed by former U.S. President Jimmy Carter and former Deputy U.S. Attorney General Larry Thompson, who wrote letters to the clemency board pleading for mercy.[6] Former U.S. Attorney General Griffin Bell also spoke on his behalf.[6] His execution went through despite these appeals.[7][8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_Osborne

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

What about this?

Curtis Osborne (died 4 June 2008) was an American convicted murderer on death row in Georgia. He was from Spalding County, Georgia.[1] He murdered two people in 1990.[1] Johnny Mostiler, his court-appointed attorney, allegedly neglected to inform Osborne that the prosecutor had offered him life sentence in exchange for a plea bargain, declaring "The little deserves the death penalty."[2][3][4][5] Osborne's case for clemency was championed by former U.S. President Jimmy Carter and former Deputy U.S. Attorney General Larry Thompson, who wrote letters to the clemency board pleading for mercy.[6] Former U.S. Attorney General Griffin Bell also spoke on his behalf.[6] His execution went through despite these appeals.[7][8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_Osborne

Did he still murder 2 people in cold blood? Yes? Hmmm, still no sympathy from me.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

stories like this just bring sympathy towards the guilty. what about the victims?

What about the victims? I've got sympathy for them.

The killer didn't -- know why? Because he's a criminal.

This whole "he didn't care about his victims so why should I care about him" business doesn't make any sense. He didn't care about killing those people because he's a murderer. Why would I try to mimic his lack of sympathy? I don't want to be like him. I don't want the state to be like him.

[Dion]

Putting a murderer in a supermax prison whey they are locked up for 23 hours a day in isolation with 1 hour for exercise is a far better option IOM that Capital Punishment. Offing some killer lets them off too easy.

I'd prefer they rot in isolation and suffer like thier victims did. Having to spend 23 hours a day locked up in isolation would drive anyone nutty.

Thing is people are being wrongfully convicted for murder and in the past wrongfully executed. People like Steven Truscott would be dead if we had a death penalty.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

Did he still murder 2 people in cold blood? Yes? Hmmm, still no sympathy from me.

Ya he did, and he should never walk free again. But you want to lower yourself to his level by murdering him?

Ok.

[Flash Walken]

This thread is cold.

[jolinar of malkshor]

No poll?

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Ya he did, and he should never walk free again. But you want to lower yourself to his level by murdering him?

Ok.

When did I murder him? I have never even said in this thread if I am for capital punishment (I don't think...). I just don't feel sorry for him because he was executed.

[Teh_Bandwagoner]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

When did I murder him? I have never even said in this thread if I am for capital punishment (I don't think...). I just don't feel sorry for him because he was executed.

Your money would be paying for his death. Not quite as direct as hiring a hitman, but not too far off in my mind.

The problem is that it rarely possible to prove "beyond a shadow of doubt", especially in a legal sense. No evidence is flawless. And even if you can determine with little doubt that the defendant is guilty, determining whether the intent is also worthy of the death penalty is hard.

On a personal note, I think even if someone murdered my whole family in cold blood, I don't think watching the perpetrator die would bring me any sense of justice or allow me to move on. It's not gonna be like "Yay he's dead! Break out the booze, I can live my life again!" Killing the murderer doesn't really accomplish all that much for either party, and as stated before doesn't even relieve the monetary burden they impose on our systems.

Edit:
And come to think of it, this article brings to light the psychological damage that can be inflicted watching someone who you have no stake in die. Especially those who have to deal with it on a regular basis. The doctors, lawyers, champlains, reporters. Is it really better for society as a whole to continue with the death penalty?

[Fire]

I approve the death penalty for murder, attempted murder, rape and sexual abuse of a child.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

When did I murder him? I have never even said in this thread if I am for capital punishment (I don't think...). I just don't feel sorry for him because he was executed.

Originally Posted by Teh_Bandwagoner

Your money would be paying for his death. Not quite as direct as hiring a hitman, but not too far off in my mind.

1) We don't have the death penalty in Canada so my money won't be paying for SFA.

2) If the bold in my quote isn't sufficient: I have never said that I am for the death penalty. My statements are regarding sympathy for a murderer who received the death penalty. I have none.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

fata it, i'd go if thats what it meant to have the death penalty... fata it, i'd love to see some of these sicko's killed.

That attitude makes you look like a sicko.

Originally Posted by tjinaz

Why is the life of a murderer worth more than a victim?

This is not to the point.

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

What about the victims? I've got sympathy for them.

The killer didn't -- know why? Because he's a criminal.

This whole "he didn't care about his victims so why should I care about him" business doesn't make any sense. He didn't care about killing those people because he's a murderer. Why would I try to mimic his lack of sympathy? I don't want to be like him. I don't want the state to be like him.

This is to the point.

Originally Posted by North East Goon

This, like the pro-choice argument is just too hot of topic to dismiss another person's belief's. I dont think my stance as pro-capital punishment could ever be swayed by the other side and vice versa for the other side. For a society it comes down to what the majority wants and be happy with the decision.

It's actually quite a bit different than the abortion argument. I can understand both sides of the abortion argument. I can't understand the other side of the state murdering argument. You are against some murders but for some murders? How is that not an inconsistent position? But we're murdering murderers so it's okay? So who murders the government who has now become a murderer? After all, they're murderers as well and are now deserving of being murdered.

How is this not obvious that this doesn't work?!

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

What about this?

Curtis Osborne (died 4 June 2008) was an American convicted murderer on death row in Georgia. He was from Spalding County, Georgia.[1] He murdered two people in 1990.[1] Johnny Mostiler, his court-appointed attorney, allegedly neglected to inform Osborne that the prosecutor had offered him life sentence in exchange for a plea bargain, declaring "The little deserves the death penalty."[2][3][4][5] Osborne's case for clemency was championed by former U.S. President Jimmy Carter and former Deputy U.S. Attorney General Larry Thompson, who wrote letters to the clemency board pleading for mercy.[6] Former U.S. Attorney General Griffin Bell also spoke on his behalf.[6] His execution went through despite these appeals.[7][8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_Osborne

This is sad. I'm surprised there are not more calls for action against the lawyer. Maybe even the death penalty? He is a murderer after all..

Originally Posted by Dion

Putting a murderer in a supermax prison whey they are locked up for 23 hours a day in isolation with 1 hour for exercise is a far better option IOM that Capital Punishment. Offing some killer lets them off too easy.

I'd prefer they rot in isolation and suffer like thier victims did. Having to spend 23 hours a day locked up in isolation would drive anyone nutty.

Thing is people are being wrongfully convicted for murder and in the past wrongfully executed. People like Steven Truscott would be dead if we had a death penalty.

This is most likely cruel and unusual. And your desire to drive someone "nutty" and have them "rot" says a lot about you.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

This thread is cold.

Disturbingly cold.

The overall attitude of this board is truly chilling.