Man Kills 2 People That Robbed Neighbours House - Page 2 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

MarchHare · 07-02-2008, 08:58 PM

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Pretty sure the law in Texas states that you are not required to refrain from using lethal force OUTSIDE of your own home if you feel threatened. And just because YOU say he wasn't threatened, doesn't mean that HE didn't feel he was threatened.

IF he was actually threatened by the two men (and that's a big if), he was only in danger because he ignored the 911 dispatcher's instructions and went outside with a shotgun to confront the men. If he had stayed inside his home, like he was told to repeatedly, he never would have been in any danger (assuming he was at all).

Azure · 07-02-2008, 08:59 PM

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Originally Posted by MarchHare

No, you see, these two guys weren't people, they were criminals. As soon as you break into an empty house, steal some property, then try to run away, you've forfeited your right to life. In Texas, burglary and petty theft will get you a brief stint in the county jail if you're arrested by the cops, tried by a jury of your peers, and found guilty in a court of law, but if a random citizen with a shotgun see you, the sentence is death.

At least get your story right if you're going to try and use sarcasm to prove a point.

MarchHare · 07-02-2008, 08:59 PM

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Originally Posted by Azure

At least get your story right if you're going to try and use sarcasm to prove a point.

Which part of my story is wrong?

Azure · 07-02-2008, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarchHare

IF he was actually threatened by the two men (and that's a big if), he was only in danger because he ignored the 911 dispatcher's instructions and went outside with a shotgun to confront the men. If he had stayed inside his home, like he was told to repeatedly, he never would have been in any danger (assuming he was at all).

The AP article said they came into his yard and threatened him.

Azure · 07-02-2008, 09:01 PM

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Originally Posted by MarchHare

Which part of my story is wrong?

The part about them stealing stuff and just trying to run away.

According to what the guy reported, the came into his yard and threatened him, where he then told them to stay put or he would shoot them. They tried to run, so he shot them. That is what the jury was told, and that is why he was cleared.

MarchHare · 07-02-2008, 09:03 PM

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Originally Posted by Azure

The AP said they came into his yard and threatened him.

No, the AP story said that that was the defense his lawyer used. Since neither of us were there, we don't know what really happened.

In any event, he shot the two men in the back as they were trying to run away. That part of the story is not being disputed.

Only in Texas would a jury determine that deliberately putting yourself in danger by confronting two burglars and then shooting them in the back when they try to flee is justifiable self-defence.

Azure · 07-02-2008, 09:05 PM

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Originally Posted by MarchHare

No, the AP story said that that was the defense his lawyer used. Since neither of us were there, we don't know what really happened.

In any event, he shot the two men in the back as they were trying to run away. That part of the story is not being disputed.

Only in Texas would a jury determine that deliberately putting yourself in danger by confronting two burglars and then shooting them in the back when they try to flee is justifiable self-defence.

Sigh.

Based on the guys account, according to what he told his lawyer, the two guys came into his yard and threatened him. He told them to comply or he'd shoot them if they ran away.

I'm going by what the guy said, not by what I assume happened. Maybe you should do the same.

Burninator · 07-02-2008, 09:13 PM

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Originally Posted by Azure

The AP article said they came into his yard and threatened him.

But what troubles me about the whole incident is that he intentionally put himself in a position to be threatened. He left his house to confront burglars with a gun. Is that really self defense? He had the choice to stay in his house and be much more safe. But instead he went outside with the intention to shoot them. He repeatedly said how he was pissed off, and how it wasn't right, and some 9/11 BS. He didn't talk much about himself being in danger or feeling threatened.

I understand we don't have the whole story (in fact we are missing a lot of it), but from what I gather it does seem like he stepped outside the boundary of self defense IMO.

Azure · 07-02-2008, 09:15 PM

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Originally Posted by Burninator

But what troubles me about the whole incident is that he intentionally put himself in a position to be threatened. He left his house to confront burglars with a gun. Is that really self defense? He had the choice to stay in his house and be much more safe. But instead he went outside with the intention to shoot them. He repeatedly said how he was pissed off, and how it wasn't right, and some 9/11 BS. He didn't talk much about himself being in danger or feeling threatened.

I understand we don't have the whole story (in fact we are missing a lot of it), but from what I gather it does seem like he stepped outside the boundary of self defense IMO.

I would tend to agree.

Texas law doesn't apparently. In fact, I believe they just amended it.

Burninator · 07-02-2008, 09:19 PM

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Originally Posted by Azure

I would tend to agree.

Texas law doesn't apparently. In fact, I believe they just amended it.

To me this sets a bad precedent (if it indeed does). Basically if you see someone committing a crime, you are permitted to approach them, and in doing so you are thereby threatened, and are free to exercise your second amendment into their back.

Vulcan · 07-02-2008, 09:22 PM

Anybody else remember the druggist in Altadore who shot and killed a robber as he ran away from the drugstore. He got off. It's maybe surprising that a jury will acquit in these circumstances despite the law, but if the accused is deemed a so called good guy and one of us, he gets a free ride.

Displaced Flames fan · 07-02-2008, 09:24 PM

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Originally Posted by Azure

Sigh.

Based on the guys account, according to what he told his lawyer, the two guys came into his yard and threatened him. He told them to comply or he'd shoot them if they ran away.

I'm going by what the guy said, not by what I assume happened. Maybe you should do the same.

During the 911 call do you hear him tell the dispatcher that they were coming into his yard?

I didn't.

He's lying.

pope04 · 07-02-2008, 09:26 PM

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Originally Posted by Vulcan

Anybody else remember the druggist in Altadore who shot and killed a robber as he ran away from the drugstore. He got off. It's maybe surprising that a jury will acquit in these circumstances despite the law, but if the accused is deemed a so called good guy and one of us, he gets a free ride.

Stephen Kessler in Marda Loop. IDA Drugs, maybe? I believe Mr. Kessler chased a guy - who'd repeatedly robbed him - out into the street and blew him away.

If I'm not mistaken, the victim/robber was on probation at the time of his demise............for robbing Kessler's store.

Azure · 07-02-2008, 09:26 PM

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Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

During the 911 call do you hear him tell the dispatcher that they were coming into his yard?

I didn't.

He's lying.

According to the jury he wasn't lying.

Displaced Flames fan · 07-02-2008, 09:31 PM

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Originally Posted by Azure

According to the jury he wasn't lying.

Well, they really didn't have a lot of eyewitness accounts to go on now did they?

RougeUnderoos · 07-02-2008, 09:36 PM

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Originally Posted by Azure

No, it was good advice. Whats your point?

The point is he didn't follow the advice of law enforcement and went outside and killed two people.

You seem to be defending the guy's actions. Either he was wrong or the dispatcher was wrong. It can't be both ways. So who was wrong? One of them has to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure

Pretty sure the law in Texas states that you are not required to refrain from using lethal force OUTSIDE of your own home if you feel threatened. And just because YOU say he wasn't threatened, doesn't mean that HE didn't feel he was threatened.

You are sure putting a lot of stock into what he "felt" was threatening, as opposed to what was actually threatening. He was in his house with a gun in his hand and the criminals probably didn't know he was watching them. They weren't coming after him. He wasn't threatened. They weren't coming into his house.

If I "feel" threatened, does that give me the right to start shooting people, even if I can't establish that I was actually threatened?

Vulcan · 07-02-2008, 09:37 PM

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Originally Posted by pope04

Stephen Kessler in Marda Loop. IDA Drugs, maybe? I believe Mr. Kessler chased a guy - who'd repeatedly robbed him - out into the street and blew him away.

Yeah that must be it. Marda Loop is in Altadore. Juries have a different sense of justice than the law.

I'm pretty sure in this Texas case the jury knew he was lying. I'm not saying it was right by any means but the old saying 'A man's home is his castle' gave these two guys an out.

Azure · 07-02-2008, 09:38 PM

Gaaah.

I'm not trying to 'defend' the guy. Just going by what his trial revealed.

icecube · 07-02-2008, 10:07 PM

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Originally Posted by Azure

According to the jury he wasn't lying.

"Hey lets go next door and threaten the man holding the shotgun."

Azure · 07-02-2008, 10:23 PM

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Originally Posted by icecube

"Hey lets go next door and threaten the man holding the shotgun."

You know exactly what happened?