CrossIron Mills Shopping Centre

[HotHotHeat]

I forgot about the ring road too. That will make it the mall of choice for a lot of the NW.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

i'm thinking the reasoning for the hotel may be a "build it and they will come" mentality. megamall, horse racing, gambling.

Build it and they may come, but does "megamall, horse racing, gambling" scream "5 star hotel clientele" to anyone?

Nothing like spending 400 bucks a night on a room thats main selling point is its proximity to Old Navy.

The best part of this whole thing is that the city is finally expanding outwards.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The best part of this whole thing is that the city is finally expanding outwards.

Finally expanding outwards? Perhaps you've missed the fact that Calgary has been sprawling outwards for decades. Also, I wouldn't count on Calgary gaining any new land for a while. When they announced the last annexation deal they mentioned that the city now had enough land to account for 50 years of growth or something along those lines.

[Smyth's Skate]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Build it and they may come, but does "megamall, horse racing, gambling" scream "5 star hotel clientele" to anyone?

Nothing like spending 400 bucks a night on a room thats main selling point is its proximity to Old Navy.

The best part of this whole thing is that the city is finally expanding outwards.

The Crossiron Mills complex is not in the City of Calgary. It is in the MD of Rockyview.

That location was chosen because the QEII is the busiest highway in Alberta. Also the Bass Pro Shop that is going in will draw visitors from all over western Canada as the only other one in Canada is in Toronto.

[RougeUnderoos]

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Smyth's Skate

The Crossiron Mills complex is not in the City of Calgary. It is in the MD of Rockyview.

That location was chosen because the QEII is the busiest highway in Alberta. Also the Bass Pro Shop that is going in will draw visitors from all over western Canada as the only other one in Canada is in Toronto.

You could throw a frisbee into the parking lot from Calgary. The "official" designation doesn't really matter. This is Calgary expanding.

[Flames89]

The Vaughn Mills Complex N of Toronto is an outlet mall - so it is cheap inside, but clothes are super cheap too.

Also, it is off the 400 going N - which is busier on the weekend than most highways in Canada as everyone leaves the city for their cottages. It would make far more sense to have this development on the road to Banff...

[North East Goon]

I certainly will be taking my business there, perfect location for me. I hope it attratcts some new stores, not available at the other malls.

[Teh_Bandwagoner]

Originally Posted by Reaper

Finally expanding outwards? Perhaps you've missed the fact that Calgary has been sprawling outwards for decades. Also, I wouldn't count on Calgary gaining any new land for a while. When they announced the last annexation deal they mentioned that the city now had enough land to account for 50 years of growth or something along those lines.

35 years apparently.

Link

Also, Ivanhoe Cambridge is having an interchange built on QEII between Stoney Trail and the Balzac interchange on QEII specifically for their mall. Money is no object for them.

[Bill Bumface]

I really wish they'd throw a car racing track in there as well with the upcoming closing or Race City.

Also, the only reason I go to West Ed is the water park. I think it's fairly safe to assume we aren't getting anything like that.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Teh_Bandwagoner

Also, Ivanhoe Cambridge is having an interchange built on QEII between Stoney Trail and the Balzac interchange on QEII specifically for their mall. Money is no object for them.

That I wasn't aware of. Is there really any point to another interchange there? Perhaps an upgrade of the 566, along with Barlow/RR294 would be more useful. If anything, I'd rather see another interchange between the 566 and Big Springs Road, connecting to Main Street and the Kings Heights area of Airdrie.

[Cowboy89]

I think people on this board seriously underestimate industrial and commercial space demand(especially so close to the Deerfoot). They could probably make enough money on those pieces of the project alone to fund the white elephant hotel for years. Gambling alone will make the race track worth it.

[Teh_Bandwagoner]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

That I wasn't aware of. Is there really any point to another interchange there? Perhaps an upgrade of the 566, along with Barlow/RR294 would be more useful. If anything, I'd rather see another interchange between the 566 and Big Springs Road, connecting to Main Street and the Kings Heights area of Airdrie.

It's more of a half-interchange. It'll provide access east towards the mall on Twp Rd 261. Pretty much its sole reason for existence is to provide access to the mall. It won't connect west either. Meh there's the creek in the way on that side anyway.

And hey, an interchange may pop up between 566 and Big Springs anyway heh. If anything I would say chances are an interchange will show up there one of these days.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

First of all it is on the busiest road in Alberta, close to the airport, lots of parking and once the ring road is open straight to the mountains. I think it is a really good idea.

Not from a sustainable planning point of view. Building a large auto-oriented commercial and entertainment complex next to future freeway in a greenfield area between, but not adjacent to, two urban centres is the perfect way to induce sprawl and increase our reliance on automobiles.

Moving away from the planning aspect, is this really a great idea from an investment perspective? Are the types of stores it wants to attract really going to take chance? Looking at some of the examples down south, no. Looking at a local example in Deerfoot Meadows, no. I doubt high-end stores as well as most regular "Chinook" types stores will be willing to open up stores in a development outside of the city when they have already invested in stores located close to their customers. I believe the types of stores that will open in this mall will be the sort that cater to the locals.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Addick

Not from a sustainable planning point of view. Building a large auto-oriented commercial and entertainment complex next to future freeway in a greenfield area between, but not adjacent to, two urban centres is the perfect way to induce sprawl and increase our reliance on automobiles.

Moving away from the planning aspect, is this really a great idea from an investment perspective? Are the types of stores it wants to attract really going to take chance? Looking at some of the examples down south, no. Looking at a local example in Deerfoot Meadows, no. I doubt high-end stores as well as most regular "Chinook" types stores will be willing to open up stores in a development outside of the city when they have already invested in stores located close to their customers. I believe the types of stores that will open in this mall will be the sort that cater to the locals.

How can you say it isn't from a sustainable planning point of view? I am sure the developers have a bunch of chains that have already purcahsed leases in the complex before they even broke ground. Not to mention, as someone else said , that land is very valuable now and even more in the future. I am sure there are long term plans to run the c-train there. Who in there right mind wants to fight traffic in the city to go to Chinook or Market mall when they can hop on the freeway and be at this mall much faster. There will also be lots of parking, something lacking in Chinook and Market (when it is busy). There is always going to be sprawl in Canada, you wont be able to stop it. But I guess you would rather have another Eu'Claire because it was so successful.

[Resolute 14]

The sprawl was happening anyway. This development isn't the cause of it, imo, but rather a result of it. Airdrie is already building a massive mixed zone area south of Yankee Valley Road along RR294 (Barlow Tr.) specifically to take advantage of the easy access to the Airport, while the west side of the City is already getting closer to Balzac every year. Similarly, Calgary is still moving north with Residential neighbourhoods West of Deerfoot, and commerical/industrial parks east, again because of the airport access.

If anything, the MD of Rockyview is probably looking at this development as a means of preventing itself from being squeezed out of the potential of the area, specifically the tax base. Balzac was already very slowly growing as an industrial park. A few years ago, I was figuring the MD was trying to turn the hamlet into another Nisku.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

How can you say it isn't from a sustainable planning point of view?

Is there any provision for transit? Could this have been built on brown/grey fields instead? If it had to be built on a greenfield could it have been built as part of a mixed-use transit-oriented development closer to an urban centre?

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

I am sure the developers have a bunch of chains that have already purcahsed leases in the complex before they even broke ground.

Undoubtedly they have some chains but not the same ones that can be seen in malls like Chinook or Market. You aren't going to see Mexx, HMV, La Senza, etc.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

I am sure there are long term plans to run the c-train there.

Nope. There are plans to continue the line north but I don't believe that even a rough route has been decided upon but that might change as the NE Line is being extended soon. However, even if the CTrain does make it up there why does the development have to precede transit? It guarantees that until the transit system is extended people will have to use cars which almost always guarantees that the development will be auto-oriented.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Who in there right mind wants to fight traffic in the city to go to Chinook or Market mall when they can hop on the freeway and be at this mall much faster. There will also be lots of parking, something lacking in Chinook and Market (when it is busy).

Who wants to travel to some out-of-the-way mall? Even if it's faster by freeway how long is that advantage going to last? Freeways always clog up once they become utilized and the additional development that this mall will induce will ensure that happens at a rather rapid pace.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

There is always going to be sprawl in Canada, with an attitude like mine you wont be able to stop it.

Fixed. Automobiles will always be around but our dependence on them doesn't have to.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

But I guess you would rather have another Eu'Claire because it was so successful.

No, I'd rather have what is replacing Eau Claire. Eau Claire was a mess, but even people with the best intentions make mistakes. Today there is a lot of literature about SmarthGrowth and sustainable development/planning. All of it, though, is not based on success stories, some of it is based on lessons learned from mistakes made.

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The sprawl was happening anyway. This development isn't the cause of it, imo, but rather a result of it.

Just because it is happening doesn't mean we need to continue it. Our region is growing and we shouldn't stop this growth but rather channel it into a sustainable form; SmartGrowth. In addition, the mall might be a result of sprawl but it will also cause and support additional sprawl.

[HotHotHeat]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

How can you say it isn't from a sustainable planning point of view? I am sure the developers have a bunch of chains that have already purcahsed leases in the complex before they even broke ground. Not to mention, as someone else said , that land is very valuable now and even more in the future. I am sure there are long term plans to run the c-train there. Who in there right mind wants to fight traffic in the city to go to Chinook or Market mall when they can hop on the freeway and be at this mall much faster. There will also be lots of parking, something lacking in Chinook and Market (when it is busy). There is always going to be sprawl in Canada, you wont be able to stop it. But I guess you would rather have another Eu'Claire because it was so successful.

Come on now... We are so incredibly unsustainable in the way we plan(and live) it's disgusting. Surely you understand that. I know the rest of your post focused on the logistics of the placement, but to call this type of planning 'sustainable' is so outrageously inaccurate it almost baffles me.

Shopping malls, generally speaking, are horrible for the environment. It's been proven that megamalls have the lowest per square foot efficiency rate of any type of retail centre. The size of them is dumbfounding...Not to mention completely unnecessary.

Here's an interesting read on urban spawn, seeing as there seems to be at least a few proponents of it gathered here...

There is a species of fatuous thinking these days in America which states, in so many words, that suburbia is fine and dandy because so many people like it. Variations on this theme range from the idea that suburbia is the highest expression of free markets, to the notion that it is the natural outcome of our democracy, to the belief that God has ordained it. This has been the reasoning of some public intellectuals such as New York Times columnist David Brooks, Joel Kotkin, of the New America Foundation, and the preposterous Peter Huber of Forbes Magazine and the Manhattan Institute. Now Robert Bruegmann, professor of art history, architecture, and urban planning at the University of Illinois, Chicago, weighs in from academia with essentially the same argument floated on barges of statistical analysis.

http://www.alternet.org/environment/45418

If you're going to talk about long term, you have to look further than the growth planning...

[jammies]

I, for one, can't wait until it's one solid mass of suburban sprawl all the way from Calgary to Edmonton, with traffic crawling along a 16 lane QE2 in a haze of hydrocarbons. That'll be swell!

-------

The city is getting more dense downtown with all the new condos going in and opening up in the next few years, but it still hasn't hit critical mass. When it does, Eau Claire might do a little better, but what they really need is to redevelop the Scotia Centre/TD Square area - that could really do well with the bigger population if it wasn't just a sad imitation of a suburban mall.

As far as sustainability goes, I agree that there is a big need to stop sprawling out and start infilling - especially downtown. There is no reason why there couldn't be 200 000-250 000 people directly downtown. They just need to pattern it on the idea of Manhattan, instead of trying to be a Dallas or Los Angeles - it might take 20-30 even 40 years, but it can be done.

First, though, they need to find some way to expropriate the railway between 9th and 10th Ave and develop it - downtown right now is split up by that line and will never integrate properly until it goes away. It should be one organic area from the Bow, down to 17th Avenue, and from Ft. Calgary to 14 Street W. Once that happens, then they can knock down a lot of the old low-rise apartments in south downtown and rebuild that side as mostly residential high-rises - along with getting the provincial gov't to pony up incentives to get low-cost subsidized senior housing (like there is just west of Ft. Calgary) throughout the area, as there is going to be huge demand for that with the aging of the population.

PS - in an small size high-rise (19 floors including 1 ground floor with foyer/commercial space, 1 floor parking, so 17 inhabited floors) like the one I live in, there are 170 suites, so around 300-400 people. You could put 8 such high-rises into one city block if you wanted, but we'll say around half that amount to allow for some green space and commercial use, so 1500-2000 people on each block; here are 78 such blocks between 10th Ave X 17th Ave, and 14th St W to 1st St SE, so that's 117 000 to 156 000 people you could put there IF the political will was there to encourage inner-city growth and severely discourage more sprawl.

Add another 80-120 000 people seeded through the rest of downtown, and in Victoria Park, and you can see that a quarter million people is doable. Again, it is POSSIBLE to do it, but I expect that it won't be done, or will be done poorly, as the city talks a good game but lacks the cojones to tell the suburbanites that the free ride is coming to an end.

[GreatWhiteEbola]

Originally Posted by Flames89

The Vaughn Mills Complex N of Toronto is an outlet mall - so it is cheap inside, but clothes are super cheap too.

Also, it is off the 400 going N - which is busier on the weekend than most highways in Canada as everyone leaves the city for their cottages. It would make far more sense to have this development on the road to Banff...

Once the ring road is completed, this development will be on the road to Banff.