post-secoundary education

[blankall]

The problem here is the problem in many industries. The market is saturated with baby boomers with tenure who refuse to compromise their lifestyles or retire. Meanwhile the young people actually doing all the work are expected to work for pitence. I have no problem with paying your dues initially, but the problem is the age where you finally "make it" gets pushed further and further back.

I used to work at a research lab and there were post-docs in their late 40s making 30-40k a year. These were highly trained specialists doing genetic manipulation that was leading to marketable products. The problem was they never saw a piece of the pie.

When they offered to put me on this route, I quickly told them to shove it and got a law degree. IMO you would have to be absolutely insane or totally morally broken to pursue academia in any way. Until they fix the system you can expect them to chase more and more talent away. Like other posters have said you can make more working retail.

I'm not saying that money should be your only factor when deciding a career, but try raising a family on 35k a year with a post-doctorate. Ever plan on being a homeowner? forget about it.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by Mango

If you went the U of C, you'll probably know of her. She was a very popular professor with the students. I know she won many teaching awards, but apparently, the U of C didn't want to renew her contract. I only had one class with her, but I know others who took sociology just to have her as a professor.

http://gauntlet.ucalgary.ca/story/9391

I didnt go to the UofC but I knew Prof. Henderson and her son quite well.

The way universities treat students and non-tenured faculty is a travesty. I agree with other posters - the concentration needs to return to the quality of the education rather than legacy projects and appearance.

[Mango]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

The way universities treat students and non-tenured faculty is a travesty. I agree with other posters - the concentration needs to return to the quality of the education rather than legacy projects and appearance.

St. Mary's University College was able to scoop her up and in only a short time, she's made her mark on that institution too.

I agree. While I was completing my BA, most of my classes were in the science theatres...probably the worst part, physically speaking, of the U of C. I used to refer to the basement as the dungeon. But even so, I had a handful of amazing professors that really made a difference in my education.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

http://gauntlet.ucalgary.ca/story/9391

I didnt go to the UofC but I knew Prof. Henderson and her son quite well.

The way universities treat students and non-tenured faculty is a travesty. I agree with other posters - the concentration needs to return to the quality of the education rather than legacy projects and appearance.

Yep... they want to be like Harvard and Yale and Berkeley and schools like that... but they forget one key issue... they are a public school with a mandate to Alberta students. Its a shame how many good students and faculty are forced/compelled to go elsewhere.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by Mango

St. Mary's University College was able to scoop her up and in only a short time, she's made her mark on that institution too.

I agree. While I was completing my BA, most of my classes were in the science theatres...probably the worst part, physically speaking, of the U of C. I used to refer to the basement as the dungeon. But even so, I had a handful of amazing professors that really made a difference in my education.

That's good news about Prof. Henderson. Im sure she was sought after.

I attended the UofA for undergrad and had similar experiences with classrooms. Granted, the UofC takes "warehouse" and "dungeon" feelings to a new level, the classes were saved by solid professors - many of them non-tenured.

[ricoFlame]

Originally Posted by Mango

St. Mary's University College was able to scoop her up and in only a short time, she's made her mark on that institution too.

I agree. While I was completing my BA, most of my classes were in the science theatres...probably the worst part, physically speaking, of the U of C. I used to refer to the basement as the dungeon. But even so, I had a handful of amazing professors that really made a difference in my education.

i remember all that with Dr. Henderson. she made classes idiot proof for all the dummies, actually telling them how to take the notes. she deserves a good job, she actually cares. very similar reaction from students, i suppose he can look forward to a job at st. mary's too?

[jamesteterenko]

This is the weakest petition that I have ever seen. A petition should actually request something of the person or organization that receives it. Within the page of text, I do not see an actual request being made. As far as I can tell, the petition effectively states, "We the undersigned feel this scenario is unjust".

What do the signees want? To increase the compensation for sessional lecturers? To increase the number of tenure track positions? To reduce the number of tenure track positions and use the money saved to increase the compensation for sessional lecturers? Give Dr. Dube an annual retention bonus and leave everything else the same? Or is the complaint that there isn't enough money overall in education?

Just to admit my bias, I am on the board of directors of a College at a major Canadian university. I am not aware of the specifics at UofC, but balancing full time faculty with sessional lecturers along with the quality of education is very difficult. This is especially true when budgets do not keep pace with inflation, which is likely the case here.

[corporatejay]

I had this guy in UG and had one class with linda henderson as well. Allison Dube was a decent prof, I didn't care much for Henderson.

The question is, it appears as though there is never any shortage of professors for these classes, so are they really being underpaid? They are being paid what the market dictates, becoming an academic is mostly about perseverance, if you decide to take 10 years of school and then bitch that you aren't well paid when finished then maybe you should have done your homework before you plunged yourself into debt and assessed the market. Just because you have a PhD doesn't mean you have the right to a well paying job. It sucks, but it's the truth.

[KAI]

Originally Posted by jamesteterenko

This is the weakest petition that I have ever seen. A petition should actually request something of the person or organization that receives it. Within the page of text, I do not see an actual request being made. As far as I can tell, the petition effectively states, "We the undersigned feel this scenario is unjust".

What do the signees want? To increase the compensation for sessional lecturers? To increase the number of tenure track positions? To reduce the number of tenure track positions and use the money saved to increase the compensation for sessional lecturers? Give Dr. Dube an annual retention bonus and leave everything else the same? Or is the complaint that there isn't enough money overall in education?

Just to admit my bias, I am on the board of directors of a College at a major Canadian university. I am not aware of the specifics at UofC, but balancing full time faculty with sessional lecturers along with the quality of education is very difficult. This is especially true when budgets do not keep pace with inflation, which is likely the case here.

"On March 26, 2008 we will be presenting both the President of the University of Calgary and the administration in the Political Science Department with our petition. The petition’s meaning is two fold: First, it is a representation to the administration at the University of Calgary, that we the students do not want to lose a great Professor like Dr. Dube. Second, it is a show of support for the sessional Professors at the University of Calgary and a recognition that there needs to be change regarding their employment conditions."

The petition is to raise awareness of this issue. The solution is the next step, right now the University needs to realize that this is a problem especially if they want to attract new qualified instructors

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by jamesteterenko

This is the weakest petition that I have ever seen. A petition should actually request something of the person or organization that receives it. Within the page of text, I do not see an actual request being made. As far as I can tell, the petition effectively states, "We the undersigned feel this scenario is unjust".

What do the signees want? To increase the compensation for sessional lecturers? To increase the number of tenure track positions? To reduce the number of tenure track positions and use the money saved to increase the compensation for sessional lecturers? Give Dr. Dube an annual retention bonus and leave everything else the same? Or is the complaint that there isn't enough money overall in education?

Just to admit my bias, I am on the board of directors of a College at a major Canadian university. I am not aware of the specifics at UofC, but balancing full time faculty with sessional lecturers along with the quality of education is very difficult. This is especially true when budgets do not keep pace with inflation, which is likely the case here.

Seems pretty clear to me, and I didn't need a university education to see it:

The SAA resolution stated, "The Students' Union oppose[s] the termination or non-renewal of faculty contracts for those who have a demonstrated record of teaching excellence."

Maybe you need to take some refresher courses, before defending some dinosaurs (who probably don't even know how to use a computer) that just happen to have the power to manipulate the education and lives of 20,000 students.

As the article says (quite clearly), Dr. Henderson was an advocate of the students. A student's teacher. The kind every student wants to have. And of course they're the first to go when the cronies in charge get their panties in a bunch.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I had this guy in UG and had one class with linda henderson as well. Allison Dube was a decent prof, I didn't care much for Henderson.

The question is, it appears as though there is never any shortage of professors for these classes, so are they really being underpaid? They are being paid what the market dictates, becoming an academic is mostly about perseverance, if you decide to take 10 years of school and then bitch that you aren't well paid when finished then maybe you should have done your homework before you plunged yourself into debt and assessed the market. Just because you have a PhD doesn't mean you have the right to a well paying job. It sucks, but it's the truth.

That's one of the biggest reasons I went into law. I wasnt going to go to school for 7-8 years for peanuts.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Just because you have a PhD doesn't mean you have the right to a well paying job. It sucks, but it's the truth.

No it most certainly is not!

Any tradesperson with 10 years under their belt is seemingly entitled to a decent living in this provice!

Any idiot can swing a hammer (I AM NOT CALLING TRADESPEOPLE IDIOTS! Simply making a point that...) but not everyone has the dedication, discipline and friggin heart to go to school for 10 years to get that PHD.

I dont put any stock into BAs or Master's. Boohoo, big deal.

But a friggin PHD? Jesus, to say that professors do not deserve a decent wage is asinine. Without them, we'll all end up as coke-head rig pigs making 80K a year and putting up our noses.

[FlamesAddiction]

I remember chatting with one of my old profs over a beer. He didn't tell me how much he made, but he said that he had 15 years of tenure and made slightly less than City of Lethbridge bus drivers... and he has TWO PhDs.

You don't get into acedemia to make money. You have to want to do it.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

No it most certainly is not!

Any tradesperson with 10 years under their belt is seemingly entitled to a decent living in this provice!

Any idiot can swing a hammer (I AM NOT CALLING TRADESPEOPLE IDIOTS! Simply making a point that...) but not everyone has the dedication, discipline and friggin heart to go to school for 10 years to get that PHD.

I dont put any stock into BAs or Master's. Boohoo, big deal.

But a friggin PHD? Jesus, to say that professors do not deserve a decent wage is asinine. Without them, we'll all end up as coke-head rig pigs making 80K a year and putting up our noses.

That's a very fair assessment, my point is when someone decides to go the route of the academic they have to realize that there is the possibility they won't be well paid.

Many Profs I knew taught 2 classes at UofC and 2 classes at Mount Royal per semester, and basically making 45k a year being a prof (that is assuming they don't teach over spring/summer). It's not great but it's enough to live, and they can hope that one day they get a tenured position.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I remember chatting with one of my old profs over a beer. He didn't tell me how much he made, but he said that he had 15 years of tenure and made slightly less than City of Lethbridge bus drivers... and he has TWO PHDs.

Then UofL profs aren't getting paid very well. Tenured profs make over 100k and 15 year tenured profs are probably making around 150.


Someone feel free to correct me but I thought that was the case. I know in ontario i think their figures are published.

here's the link to ontario.


http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/english/pub.../univer06.html

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

But a friggin PHD? Jesus, to say that professors do not deserve a decent wage is asinine. Without them, we'll all end up as coke-head rig pigs making 80K a year and putting up our noses.

Huh?

Professors get a decent wage when they earn tenure but unfortunately for them there is a limited number of positions available and not a whole lot of movement at the top (thanks to tenure).

I hope universities concentrate on getting the best possible minds in the right positions, but as for pay - when you've proven yourself, you receive it - until then, good luck competing with the numerous others also holding PhD's in Philosophy, Psychology, History, Sociology, Linguistics, etc...

[Johnny 99]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

No it most certainly is not!

Any tradesperson with 10 years under their belt is seemingly entitled to a decent living in this provice!

Any idiot can swing a hammer (I AM NOT CALLING TRADESPEOPLE IDIOTS! Simply making a point that...) but not everyone has the dedication, discipline and friggin heart to go to school for 10 years to get that PHD.

I dont put any stock into BAs or Master's. Boohoo, big deal.

But a friggin PHD? Jesus, to say that professors do not deserve a decent wage is asinine. Without them, we'll all end up as coke-head rig pigs making 80K a year and putting up our noses.

I am a tradesperson. I get up every day at 5:30 am and go to work outside. When it is raining, I am outside getting wet. In the summer, I'm out there sweating my balls off. When it is -37 (-55 with the wind chill), I'm out there swinging my hammer, as you so eloquently put it. Half my life I'll be laid off, out of work and wondering where my next meal is coming from. I'll have to travel to find work elswhere; my offspring will quite likely grow up without me; I have a 70% chance of getting divorced.

Gimme half the money, surround me with college age girls, and I'll be more than happy.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

This pretty much sums up why I'm leaving the academic life behind. Being a professor is a ton of work--and it's work that very few people appreciate. The salary is lousy (in English it's not even great for tenure-track faculty) and it takes years to get to a position where job or financial security makes up for the debt you've accummulated. Not only that, it's a lifestyle where the expectation is that you work 60-80 hour weeks, sacrificing family, friends and recreation, three very important things to me.

I'm teaching right now--and in the short term I may well teach again, at least while we're in the states. It's the thing I'm most qualified to do. But I will never apply for a tenure track job. I'd rather do almost anything else.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Johnny 99

I am a tradesperson. I get up every day at 5:30 am and go to work outside. When it is raining, I am outside getting wet. In the summer, I'm out there sweating my balls off. When it is -37 (-55 with the wind chill), I'm out there swinging my hammer, as you so eloquently put it. Half my life I'll be laid off, out of work and wondering where my next meal is coming from. I'll have to travel to find work elswhere; my offspring will quite likely grow up without me; I have a 70% chance of getting divorced.

Gimme half the money, surround me with college age girls, and I'll be more than happy.

And I have all the respect in the world for someone who "works his balls off" for his family, children, and for a sense of accomplishment. I don't like it though, when tradespeople who are in their vocation through laziness or addiction tear down on the acedemics and claim they don't deserve a fair wage just because they're not doing physical labour.

Which is where my coke-head rig-pig comment came from. In retrospect it was a little over the top, so I apologize.

But I do certainly stand by the spirit of my post, if not the asthetics.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I had this guy in UG and had one class with linda henderson as well. Allison Dube was a decent prof, I didn't care much for Henderson.

The question is, it appears as though there is never any shortage of professors for these classes, so are they really being underpaid? They are being paid what the market dictates, becoming an academic is mostly about perseverance, if you decide to take 10 years of school and then bitch that you aren't well paid when finished then maybe you should have done your homework before you plunged yourself into debt and assessed the market. Just because you have a PhD doesn't mean you have the right to a well paying job. It sucks, but it's the truth.

LOL I'm with CJ there. Going into that, you knew what you are getting yourself in to. I think it sucks for them, but thats the path they chose to go. Some of my profs are millionairs owning their own business as well.

I have 2 friends that want to go into acadamia. I told them that they get paid crapped, and they gave a bit of a whiny sob story - but hey, they were warned.

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

No it most certainly is not!

Any tradesperson with 10 years under their belt is seemingly entitled to a decent living in this provice!

Any idiot can swing a hammer (I AM NOT CALLING TRADESPEOPLE IDIOTS! Simply making a point that...) but not everyone has the dedication, discipline and friggin heart to go to school for 10 years to get that PHD.

I dont put any stock into BAs or Master's. Boohoo, big deal.

But a friggin PHD? Jesus, to say that professors do not deserve a decent wage is asinine. Without them, we'll all end up as coke-head rig pigs making 80K a year and putting up our noses.

The thing is, you don't pay people for their heart. You pay them for the job they do.