The North American Currency Union (Amero)

[worth]

So that's a reason to combine the countries? Because Canadians are just Americans in disguise?

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by maverickeastwood

Would this affect our borders? Would we still be separate nations?

yes. just because countries adopt a common currency, does not mean that they loose their land or boarders...
All EU states still control their boarders, there are still boarder crossings etc.

[HotHotHeat]

Haha, Lanny, I never said we weren't, I said we pride ourselves on thinking we aren't. We hold nearly all of the same values, we're Americanized through and through...But try telling someone that up here. They'd have 100 reasons how they're different from Americans...It's all a lack of perception really.

[Ozy_Flame]

Both that internet movie Zeitgeist and Alex Jones cover the Amero situation. Both sources don't speak to favorably about it either.

I'd say no to any currency standard. Canadians are fine with their dollar.

[worth]

Originally Posted by arsenal

yes. just because countries adopt a common currency, does not mean that they loose their land or boarders...
All EU states still control their boarders, there are still boarder crossings etc.

This is really just an illusion. What do borders matter if the same people are making the decisions for all the countries? The purpose of borders are to outline sovereign nations. If there is no sovereignty, are there borders? There may still be borders in the physical sense, or on a map, but in reality there are none.

When the EU was implemented, Countries could veto EU laws. This right to veto laws and basic sovereignty of each member country has been slowly eroded away. The Lisbon treaty further erodes member countries sovereignty.

http://www.teameurope.info/modules.p...rticle&sid=148

If the NAU goes through, this will end up happening here.

The other thing that I think people are missing is this is not just integration of currency. It is integration of the countries. Law enforcement, militaries, security, government, laws etc. It goes far beyond currency.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by worth

So that's a reason to combine the countries? Because Canadians are just Americans in disguise?

Not a reason at all. I was just taking issue with this statement.

I'll argue national sovereignty is, for some people, one of the most highly coveted values we posses. We pride ourselves on not being American.

Canadians don't have an identity anymore. We've emulated everything we see on American TV for so long that we have become little Americans, embracing everything they value. The only thing that really makes Canadians different is the undying love for hockey, and THAT's different. All you need to do is look at the attitudes displayed on this board. We've become what we thought we hated most. Canada has been assimilated and there was no resistence.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

Haha, Lanny, I never said we weren't, I said we pride ourselves on thinking we aren't. We hold nearly all of the same values, we're Americanized through and through...But try telling someone that up here. They'd have 100 reasons how they're different from Americans...It's all a lack of perception really.

Ah, okay. I see where you're coming from.

[HotHotHeat]

The truth is, the American culture of capitalism is the most successful, popular trend in the history of the world. Canadians aren't the only ones trying to emulate American lifestyles, and to be fair you could also argue we've been doing it the longest. Hell...Pizza Hut is the number one restaurant in India.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

The truth is, the American culture of capitalism is the most successful, popular trend in the history of the world. Canadians aren't the only ones trying to emulate American lifestyles, and to be fair you could also argue we've been doing it the longest. Hell...Pizza Hut is the number one restaurant in India.

Agreed. Capitalism itself is a pragmatic idea, and has worked well on some levels, but not on others. In addition to the Western countries, looking at places like Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore, not to mention the rising East Asian Tigers bloc, you can get a sense of how some countries use it to match their own resource base and ideals. Countries like Sweden and Norway have forms of social capitalism, which by political standards are quite left-leaning, but are still capitaliast, industrious countries.

America has been doing it for most longer than anyone else, even if there are perceived flaws in the system. For example, it doesn't take a capitalist system to spend somewhere in the range of a trillion dollars on a questionable war. Asset allocation and liability management is a completely different story than questioning capitalism itself.

[Cowboy89]

Research an economic concept called 'Dutch Disease,' (no I'm not talking about Trees ala 'Dutch Elm Disease'). Under the 'Amero' Dutch disease can happen to Mexico and Canada when the US economy moves different directions. An example of this would be should the US go through a painful recession while Canada booms. Under the current system the fed in the US would lower interest rates to stimulate the economy, while the bank of Canada would increase rates to curb inflation. Should we have a common money supply the American dominated bank of North America would reduce interest rates anyway because it helps a much larger proportion of people and thus Canada sees higher inflation. Conversely should Canada be doing poorly while the US is doing well the Amero would increase interest rates reducing inflation in the US while making our situation a whole lot worse.

Now an arguement mitigating this would be that usually our economies work in tandem and thus when the US is in recession it has it's effects on both sides of the border and likewise when it's doing well economically. However it's those situations when we aren't moving in tandem (ie right now) when you'd want control over your own money supply for the reasons mentioned above.

'Dutch Disease' happens domestically as well: When Alberta booms at a time when Ontario and Quebec manufacturing suffer there will be higher inflation in Alberta because the bank of Canada wouldn't want to cripple Ontario and Quebec with high interest rates. Conversely when Alberta is in recession and Ontario and Quebec are doing well, all other things being equal things will only get worse in Alberta as interest rates will climb in order to keep inflation under control in more populated places in Canada.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Now an arguement mitigating this would be that usually our economies work in tandem and thus when the US is in recession it has it's effects on both sides of the border and likewise when it's doing well economically. However it's those situations when we aren't moving in tandem (ie right now) when you'd want control over your own money supply for the reasons mentioned above.

I agree with that, but all it would take is one well-timed catastrophe in the US to throw our economies into opposite directions. A huge natural disaster requiring monetary relief, a terrorist attack, or a scandalous corporate meltdown could easily change the course of any such congruent patterns.

For the most part though, we're generally tied to the American system, given they are our largest trading partner and international consumer base.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I agree with that, but all it would take is one well-timed catastrophe in the US to throw our economies into opposite directions. A huge natural disaster requiring monetary relief, a terrorist attack, or a scandalous corporate meltdown could easily change the course of any such congruent patterns.

For the most part though, we're generally tied to the American system, given they are our largest trading partner and international consumer base.

It's a trade off issue. It could indeed be better off for us due to reduced transaction costs and a number of other cost synergies associated with having our own currencies. We'd be sacrificing an element of control over our own money supply for these things.


Another arguement for this could be that it ties the hands of local government from doing stupid things economically to advance their political cause. Ie should we enter into a currency union like the Euro we'd set up common fiscal framework that each government would be bound by. In Europe they have a number of fiscal ratios that country governments must live up to in order to adopt and use the Euro. So should Jack Layton get into power and want to start enshrining a bunch of costly government provided benefits, he would only be able to borrow so much money until we exceed agreed upon fiscal thresholds and he'd be forced to get the budget back in line. Or conversely should a certain country want to bankrupt itself fighting a war it would find it more difficult to do so under a common currency agreement depending on how it's ironed out.

[Ozy_Flame]

I'm wondering with the Amero and NAU in general, would a cross-border work visa be a viable option? It would be much easier for Canadians into the US professional job market, and very easy for Americans and Mexicans to come ease the labor crunch in parts of Canada. Of course, I'm sure the Americans would have a fit at the very idea though...Perhaps an extensive look at how well it's working in the EU would be a good option?

[Montana Moe]

Does this mean I'll have to change my user name to Montalberta Moe? I guess then the Flames could be my home team.

[Sparks]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Canadians don't have an identity anymore. We've emulated everything we see on American TV for so long that we have become little Americans, embracing everything they value. The only thing that really makes Canadians different is the undying love for hockey, and THAT's different. All you need to do is look at the attitudes displayed on this board. We've become what we thought we hated most. Canada has been assimilated and there was no resistence.

You know, I think we're just like the UK. I mean, we speak the same language, have the same political and judicial system, hell, we have the same head of state, we have very similar values, opinion polls usually match closely between the countries, our alliances are the same. We're basically Brits in disguise!


There are many things that make us different from the Americans, the Brits, the Mexicans, the Chinese, the Sri Lankans. We're our own country. Can't we leave it at that? Why must we always have the silly "us verses the Americans" argument?

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Sparks

You know, I think we're just like the UK. I mean, we speak the same language, have the same political and judicial system, hell, we have the same head of state, we have very similar values, opinion polls usually match closely between the countries, our alliances are the same. We're basically Brits in disguise!

When I was in unversity in 06, my professor teaching EU Politics was discussing at the time a survey done where Canadians identified themselves as more European than American (specifically, more like Brits). I'd love to track down that study somewhere, and see what reasons were given.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by 4X4

I don't care for the idea, personally. It seems to me that a North American common currency wouldn't really benefit Canada or the US. Maybe Mexico. The reason I think it wouldn't be great for Canada is because our currency would be tied to the American economy. It'd be like having a joint bank account with someone that makes more money than you, but also spends more money than you. You'd never really have the power to control your bottom line.

The US wouldn't benefit because they'd be propping up Mexico and also, to a lesser extent, Canada. I suppose they would benefit from the trading power that would come with it, but in the grand scheme of things, that'd be nominal compared to the drawbacks.

Mexico would benefit greatly because of tourism. Or would they suffer? Maybe they'd also suffer because one of the great things about going to Mexico is that our money is worth so much more... I have to think about that a little more.

Comparing the idea to the euro is apples and oranges. Europe is vastly different in so many ways. Sheer size, to begin with. The 14 or 15 countries that use the euro are less than a third the size of the US combined. And they're all very well travelled. Plus their economies rely on eachother significantly more tha the US' economy relies on Canada's.

Of course, I'm no economist. That's just a bunch of junk off the top of my head.

Exactly, it doesn't make sense for any of the parties invovled. And the line I bolded is by itself the reason why it'll never happen.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by arsenal

yes. just because countries adopt a common currency, does not mean that they loose their land or boarders...
All EU states still control their boarders, there are still boarder crossings etc.

Actually there aren't. You fly into any EU (or Schengen at least) airport and your passport is stamped. When you fly from one EU/Schengen airport to another, there is no passport control. You only go through passport control again when you leave the Schengen zone.

Same for train travel. Hope on a train in Frankfurt and head to Amsterdam or Paris and there are no border check points, etc.

[HotHotHeat]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Exactly, it doesn't make sense for any of the parties invovled. And the line I bolded is by itself the reason why it'll never happen.

Countries don't control their bottom line as it is. They create it.

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Actually there aren't. You fly into any EU (or Schengen at least) airport and your passport is stamped. When you fly from one EU/Schengen airport to another, there is no passport control. You only go through passport control again when you leave the Schengen zone.

Same for train travel. Hope on a train in Frankfurt and head to Amsterdam or Paris and there are no border check points, etc.

yah that is true.. i was confusing non-EU states and EU states.
But yah.. wouldn't it be better to be able to get around the US and Canada with out feeling like a criminal? Once you are in the NAU, then you are free to travel about.
Passport control in EU states is so much nicer.
When ever I come back to Canada, I am always given a hard time at customs. It pisses me off.