fun with nickleback

[rockstar]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Dec 2 2004, 11:36 AM
What is a "pre-chorus"? Is it related to a con-chorus? Or a dis-chorus? Or inter-chorus? Or are you refering to the bridge?

And yes, writing a song is a formula. If you enter contests with your music, or are trying to get signed, they are looking for basic structure. Free form (the style I always prefered to write in) is not considered an acceptable writing style... until you make it big and can do what ever you want.

I'm not saying that these people aren't looking for this kind of standard formula, it's definitely what they're doing. I agree with everything you say about what is popular and what isn't. I just absolutely HATE the idea that you have to present these stock formulas and song structures in order to get noticed. It's B.S. I am more of a free form writer myself, and I hate the fact that the chances are seriously low for anyone making it "big" if they don't recreate exactly what we're hearing on the radio these days. The big record companies are exploiting this thing to death, and I'm sick of it.
It's just too bad that the general public has bought into this formula and itsn't inclined enough to tell the difference from song to song. There's no humanity in the songs anymore. Instead of the goal being to spread your art to people around the world, the goal is now to make a song that people and record companies will buy into, so you can make it big and strike it rich at the expense of real artists who make real music. THAT'S what's wrong.

[Patek23]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Dec 2 2004, 07:58 PM
I don't classify that rap. As soon as you actually have real instruments involved, and have a band that has to work in conjunction with the singer/rapper, well its no longer "rap". I think that falls under the auspices of alternative, and yes, there are some good artists that play that type of music. I'm refering to the guy who grabs a microphone and rattles off a bunch of incoherent words that he passes off as urban poetry. Those guys just make me shake my head. Working within the confines of a band, playing off of each other and going with a groove takes talent and a commitment from all involved. That's why bands get much more respect than solo artists IMO.

personally the sound of a guitar is very annoying to me, there are only a few exeptions where I can listen to music with a guitar. As many times I've had to try to defend rap but normally people say well it's so easy. So I would say the same thing to you as you said to someone else. If it's so easy than why don't you try?

[Patek23]

Originally posted by GerryCheevers+Dec 2 2004, 08:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (GerryCheevers @ Dec 2 2004, 08:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JayP@Dec 2 2004, 02:22 PM

Give me a break. I'm not a huge fan of rap, but all underground hip-hop artists have a ton more musical integrity than Nickleback.

I don't see how picking up a guitar and slapping together the same song over and over again deserves props. Anyone can do that. It takes maybe half a year before someone just learning to play guitar can duplicate what Nickleback does.

rigghhhhhhhhhhhhhht...IF anything, almost ALL of Hip Hop or Rap sounds exactly the same...pullease try again! [/b][/quote]
I have to absolutely and completely disagree. I can't stand mainstream rap and hip hop. But one thing I do know is that what sells these artists more so than their rapping and/or singing is the uniqueness (not sure if thats a word) of their beat. Maybe it's just because you never gave rap or hip hop a chance and just wrote them off?

[dangler22]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Dec 2 2004, 07:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Dec 2 2004, 07:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JayP@Dec 2 2004, 07:22 PM

Give me a break. I'm not a huge fan of rap, but all underground hip-hop artists have a ton more musical integrity than Nickleback.

I don't see how picking up a guitar and slapping together the same song over and over again deserves props. Anyone can do that. It takes maybe half a year before someone just learning to play guitar can duplicate what Nickleback does.

Hey, if its so easy why don't you do it? Don't want the headaches associated wiith having more money than you know what to do with? Or don't like the prospects of having to do a different girl every night? Or you don't like the idea of travelling around the world playing YOUR music? What is it that makes it so undesireble to a multi-talented fellow like yourself? I think its because you don't have the talent to do it and don't have the balls to get up in front of a crowd and put your self-esteem on the line every night. Prove yourself right. June 2nd, 2006, you can begin your career in show business by playing your greatest hits.

And please, compared to actually writing and arranging music rap is a total joke! Anyone can write rhymes, get up, take a tough pose and grab their crotch every five seconds. Takes very little ability other than the odd altiteration to struggle through. The only serious talent on a stage at a rap event are the guys spinning. It takes talent to take those samples and make them into something that someone can sing "Mary had a little lamb" to. Props to dem boyz!

[/b][/quote]
Lets see you make a rap then. Then you can get laid every night drive a hummer with 24 inch rims and have teeth made of platinum and diamonds. But I guess being filthy rich doesn't appeal to you does it?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Flaming Homer@Dec 3 2004, 01:42 AM
If it's so easy than why don't you try?

Don't know how many 40-something white rappers there are.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by dangler22@Dec 3 2004, 01:52 AM
Lets see you make a rap then.

Sure, I'll play. I'll have to deliver tomorrow thought, it's almost apprentice time.

[rockstar]

Originally posted by dangler22@Dec 2 2004, 07:52 PM
Then you can get laid every night drive a hummer with 24 inch rims and have teeth made of platinum and diamonds. But I guess being filthy rich doesn't appeal to you does it?

This is exactly what's wrong with rap/hip-hop. The sole objective of an aspiring rapper is exactly what you have written here.


Rap sucks.

[Kjesse]

I always thought Nickelback's stuff sounded strangely the same, but wow, that really drives the point home!

As a fan of harder/thrashing rock, I like the guitar sounds of Nickelback, but think their songs compare better with formulaic/uninspired pop groups. Its great they "made it" (in a short term kind of way, but still, much further than most) but their songs really leave a lot to be desired. Catchy, but..... ugh.

No, I couldn't strum a guitar if it meant saving my own life. Does that mean my opinion is not qualified? Hardly.

They hit it, they liked it, they did it again. I guess musical tastes are very personal, but I'd happen a guess that their fan base is more shallow than deep... ie. lots of people like it, but few really love it.

Now if somebody would just convince the Smashing Pumpkins to get back together.......

[arsenal]

Speaking of which, here is that website i was talking about:
Hit Song Science

As far as Nickelback songs sounding the same.. well duh. Look at any band in history. The Beattles songs, well they all sounded fairly similar. The Doors, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd. All these bands had 2 songs that sound very similar.

[JayP]

Originally posted by ROCKSTAR+Dec 3 2004, 07:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ROCKSTAR @ Dec 3 2004, 07:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-dangler22@Dec 2 2004, 07:52 PM
Then you can get laid every night drive a hummer with 24 inch rims and have teeth made of platinum and diamonds. But I guess being filthy rich doesn't appeal to you does it?

This is exactly what's wrong with rap/hip-hop. The sole objective of an aspiring rapper is exactly what you have written here.


Rap sucks. [/b][/quote]
Rap isn't about bling-bling and hoes. What you hear on the radio is mainstream garbage and can hardly be considered rap. Listen to some Sage Francis and then try and tell me he's about about gold chains and bitches.

Just like Nickleback and garbage like that isn't what rock and roll is all about, Nelly isn't what rap is all about.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Dec 2 2004, 12:44 PM
Hey, if its so easy why don't you do it? Don't want the headaches associated wiith having more money than you know what to do with? Or don't like the prospects of having to do a different girl every night? Or you don't like the idea of travelling around the world playing YOUR music? What is it that makes it so undesireble to a multi-talented fellow like yourself? I think its because you don't have the talent to do it and don't have the balls to get up in front of a crowd and put your self-esteem on the line every night. Prove yourself right. June 2nd, 2006, you can begin your career in show business by playing your greatest hits.

And please, compared to actually writing and arranging music rap is a total joke! Anyone can write rhymes, get up, take a tough pose and grab their crotch every five seconds. Takes very little ability other than the odd altiteration to struggle through. The only serious talent on a stage at a rap event are the guys spinning. It takes talent to take those samples and make them into something that someone can sing "Mary had a little lamb" to. Props to dem boyz!

Hey if it's so easy why don't you do it?

If rap is nothing but grabbing your nuts and putting together some rhymes then it can't be too hard to get rich. Go for it!

I appreciate that you've done your own thing but to lump all rap together and say it all sounds the same is like saying you can't tell the difference between Metallica and the Beach Boys.

[Phanuthier]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Dec 2 2004, 12:34 PM
Well, since the majority of rock and roll is based on 12 bar blues structure you could probably do this with thousands of songs, from different artists and get it to work. And I don't hear the exact same breaks in the music either. Same beat, but that's a pretty standard thing.

Seems to me that its another guy who has zero musical ability or taste poking fun at a band that managed to find a niche and make it work. The guy who did this is probably some nerd who likes to throw out obscure bands that no one has heard of, can't play their instruments, and thinks he's cool for hammering away the "establishment". ANY band that can write their own music, play their own instruments and work their way into the music industry gets props IMO. Having played in a couple of bands I know what it is like to have that dream and how hard it is to catch that break and how every goof out there is a critic. To those people I say strap on an axe, pick up some sticks and let's see what you can do. Until you produce anything go, back to listening to your Ashley Simpson or any rapper. Making something from nothing is extremely difficult. I may not like some music, but I give those that create it the props for doing so. Man, if you want to look at bands that did nothing but repeat their successes, look at the Stones and the Beatles in their early years. Its the way the industry works. You don't get the freedom be be really creative until you get to produce your own music and have complete control. Pink Floyd wasn't always briilliant. They had to pay their dues and prove they could sell anything before they got to "experiment".

Well I'm a little later here, but anyways...

Take this from someone who has a strong music resume - Nickleback is like the Grade 8 band from a garage that had a couple catchy tunes and got lucky with a recording company or whatever. Kudo's for them to make it as far as they did, but solely talking about music... we'll lets just say its kids stuff.

(Edit: For instance, they use probably the most common drum beat - the hi hit dotted eighth with the snare and base drum.)

[Phanuthier]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Dec 2 2004, 07:44 PM
I think its because you don't have the talent to do it and don't have the balls to get up in front of a crowd and put your self-esteem on the line every night.

Nickleback doesn't have a whole heck-of-alot of talent - what makes them as big as they are is a catchy tune. Talent doesn't always equate to success.

As well, Nickleback doesn't a exactly follow the music rules and theory as you might think.

[Patek23]

Originally posted by ROCKSTAR+Dec 3 2004, 07:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ROCKSTAR @ Dec 3 2004, 07:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-dangler22@Dec 2 2004, 07:52 PM
Then you can get laid every night drive a hummer with 24 inch rims and have teeth made of platinum and diamonds. But I guess being filthy rich doesn't appeal to you does it?

This is exactly what's wrong with rap/hip-hop. The sole objective of an aspiring rapper is exactly what you have written here.


Rap sucks. [/b][/quote]
Than what did the rock stars do it for? For the love of the music? give me a break in the 80's and 90's it was everyones (not literally) dream to become a rockstar so they could live the rockstar life of sex and drugs. Hell it's even in your name. It amazes me how much you hip hop and rap haters sh*t so much on the same things that are common amongst bands and other "rock" artists.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Phanuthier@Dec 3 2004, 09:18 AM
Take this from someone who has a strong music resume - Nickleback is like the Grade 8 band from a garage that had a couple catchy tunes and got lucky with a recording company or whatever. Kudo's for them to make it as far as they did, but solely talking about music... we'll lets just say its kids stuff.

(Edit: For instance, they use probably the most common drum beat - the hi hit dotted eighth with the snare and base drum.)

And what musical resume would that be Phaneuf? Please explain. Frankly I don't think you know music very well, especially rock music, based primarily on this comment.

"For instance, they use probably the most common drum beat - the hi hit dotted eighth with the snare and base drum."

This common drum beat, refered to as the "rock beat", is the basis for pretty well every rock song done. Almost all rock music is based on 12 bar blues, which is scored in 4/4 time (everything based on base fractions of one... whole, half, quarter, sixteenth, thirty second, etc.). Very little of it is written in 3/4 or 6/8 (waltz) or the more complex 7/8 (losing a count every second bar). It just doesn't lend itself to the 12 bar blues roots that rock and roll has developed from. Also, when you say that "hi hit dotted eighth with the snare and base drum" are the basis of the music, well this is the same for all rock music again. The backbeat (the drums and the bass) is the foundation for the music and it is pretty well the same in 99.9% of rock music written and played. There is just no way of getting around it.

Also, allow me to correct your most glaring flaw in your post. Now its been a while since I have done my music theory, but I do remember the majority of it. especially how it relates to the instruments I play (drums and bass). Your comment "hi hit dotted eighth with the snare and base drum" is wrong. The hi hat is usually played in even eighth or quarter notes to define a steady backbeat from which the rest of the drummer's movements (snare, kick and tom toms) work evenly and in concert with the bass and the other instuments. This works out to an even four or eight beats per bar and establishes the time keeping role for the band which the conductor would normally hold with an orchestra. The pattern you suggest (a dotted eighth note) would mean an uneven pattern leading to disaray for the other players. A dotted eight is equal to three sixteenths meaning that the drummer would be playing in (effect) 7/8 and be out of synch with the rest of the band, or making 12 bar blues impossible to play. If you have ever looked at any music for a drummer you will find that the hi hat or cymbal is annotated as even quarters of eighths for almost all rock music. The only place I have seen the dotted eight used in a score is in dixieland or jazz where a shuffle beat is utilized. The dotted eighth is a very seldom used notation in rock music as it is an odd ball note that stands out like a sore thumb in 4/4 tempo.

I don't mean to be snotty Phaneuf, but if you're going to hammer a band for something, and claim it to be "simplistic", at least be correct in the critique of their playing. As for the "kids stuff" comment, I'm sure that that's what all the ochestral players were thinking when the SPO played with Metallica, or the EPO played with Procol Harem, or any such event. The universal comment after playing with a rock band has always been one of admiration and respect, because the musicians appreciate how difficult it is to master their instrument and play in front of a crowd. That is never kids stuff.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Dec 3 2004, 08:24 AM
Hey if it's so easy why don't you do it?

Without further ado... spin me a beat!

Here’s my kick at the rap game
Which likely don’t seem sane
But it’s a fair and part of my aim
To make this rhyming junk look inane
Without backbeat its all the same
Fools with no tools look for acclaim
Hate filled messages they proclaim
Aren’t meant to strike others and defame
But if it works they shun their surname
In favor of some bogus trade name
Meant to project some street fame
When they are wannbe faker boehme

If their talent with music was real
They wouldn’t sample others and steal
Being lame on their own with no appeal
Praying for the fame of Shaquille
Hoping for a dollar and some new wheels
Selling their mothers eyes to make a deal
Taking a tough stance to conceal
No talent and less sex appeal
Rhyming in ways that seems so surreal
Instead of leaning instrument skills for real
Which would land a music deal
Like BB King and his lady Lucille

My rap it nears the end
But I will cease to even pretend
That my skills in this direction lend
Any hope for me to ascend
To the charts where I might transcend
The borders of which might portend
That any low brow fool can spend
A few minutes with pen and contend
To speak to the masses and defend
That his thoughts which condesend
And make the words which he recommend
More words in ways which befriend
A DJ spinning beats which he blends
The patterns which beliefs suspend
Maintaining hopes of a contract to apprehend
And continue this long tired trend
Of rhyming endlessly, I will append
Having no musical ability in the end
All of this comes to an end
When our hero does reoffend

And heads back to cell block… What up my #####!!!

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by ROCKSTAR+Dec 3 2004, 12:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ROCKSTAR @ Dec 3 2004, 12:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-dangler22@Dec 2 2004, 07:52 PM
Then you can get laid every night drive a hummer with 24 inch rims and have teeth made of platinum and diamonds. But I guess being filthy rich doesn't appeal to you does it?

This is exactly what's wrong with rap/hip-hop. The sole objective of an aspiring rapper is exactly what you have written here.


Rap sucks. [/b][/quote]
And how exactly do you know all rappers are into nothing but gold teeth and big cars?

Rock and roll is about nothing but getting high and getting laid. Nothing else. Look at KISS.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Dec 3 2004, 04:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Dec 3 2004, 04:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RougeUnderoos@Dec 3 2004, 08:24 AM
Hey if it's so easy why don't you do it?

Without further ado... spin me a beat!

Here’s my kick at the rap game
Which likely don’t seem sane
But it’s a fair and part of my aim
To make this rhyming junk look inane
Without backbeat its all the same
Fools with no tools look for acclaim
Hate filled messages they proclaim
Aren’t meant to strike others and defame
But if it works they shun their surname
In favor of some bogus trade name
Meant to project some street fame
When they are wannbe faker boehme

If their talent with music was real
They wouldn’t sample others and steal
Being lame on their own with no appeal
Praying for the fame of Shaquille
Hoping for a dollar and some new wheels
Selling their mothers eyes to make a deal
Taking a tough stance to conceal
No talent and less sex appeal
Rhyming in ways that seems so surreal
Instead of leaning instrument skills for real
Which would land a music deal
Like BB King and his lady Lucille

My rap it nears the end
But I will cease to even pretend
That my skills in this direction lend
Any hope for me to ascend
To the charts where I might transcend
The borders of which might portend
That any low brow fool can spend
A few minutes with pen and contend
To speak to the masses and defend
That his thoughts which condesend
And make the words which he recommend
More words in ways which befriend
A DJ spinning beats which he blends
The patterns which beliefs suspend
Maintaining hopes of a contract to apprehend
And continue this long tired trend
Of rhyming endlessly, I will append
Having no musical ability in the end
All of this comes to an end
When our hero does reoffend

And heads back to cell block… What up my #####!!!



[/b][/quote]
Well that's a hell of an effort but I'll wait until I can download it for free. No bling for you.

[ricosuave]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Dec 3 2004, 11:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Dec 3 2004, 11:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RougeUnderoos@Dec 3 2004, 08:24 AM
Hey if it's so easy why don't you do it?

Without further ado... spin me a beat!

Here’s my kick at the rap game
Which likely don’t seem sane
But it’s a fair and part of my aim
To make this rhyming junk look inane
Without backbeat its all the same
Fools with no tools look for acclaim
Hate filled messages they proclaim
Aren’t meant to strike others and defame
But if it works they shun their surname
In favor of some bogus trade name
Meant to project some street fame
When they are wannbe faker boehme

If their talent with music was real
They wouldn’t sample others and steal
Being lame on their own with no appeal
Praying for the fame of Shaquille
Hoping for a dollar and some new wheels
Selling their mothers eyes to make a deal
Taking a tough stance to conceal
No talent and less sex appeal
Rhyming in ways that seems so surreal
Instead of leaning instrument skills for real
Which would land a music deal
Like BB King and his lady Lucille

My rap it nears the end
But I will cease to even pretend
That my skills in this direction lend
Any hope for me to ascend
To the charts where I might transcend
The borders of which might portend
That any low brow fool can spend
A few minutes with pen and contend
To speak to the masses and defend
That his thoughts which condesend
And make the words which he recommend
More words in ways which befriend
A DJ spinning beats which he blends
The patterns which beliefs suspend
Maintaining hopes of a contract to apprehend
And continue this long tired trend
Of rhyming endlessly, I will append
Having no musical ability in the end
All of this comes to an end
When our hero does reoffend

And heads back to cell block… What up my #####!!!



[/b][/quote]

[Bill Bumface]

"Write letterz n sh*t, yo"