Liberals stand by deadline to abandon combat role

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Personally I think theres a large contigent of liberals that want Dion to fail to force a leadership change..

The problem is there's seemingly a vast shortage of qualified Liberals who want the job. As a card-carrying Liberal, the last federal election had the exact result I wanted -- a small Conservative minority that has had any right-wing social policies held back by the three other (more left-leaning) parties. This resulted in Martin resigning and the Liberals would then hopefully choose a leader with no association with the sponsorship scandal, thereby defeating the CPC's main election plank (Liberal scandals vs. Conservative accountability).

The smart money was on either Frank McKenna or Brian Tobin gaining the leadership. Either of those two would have been an excellent prime minister and would have easily mopped the floor with Harper in a federal election. Unfortunately, neither of them wanted the job, so the Liberals were left with a slate of bland and uninspiring candidates. The only guy with any real ideas, Ignatieff, was unpalatable because of his previous unwavering support for the Iraq invasion.

The the Liberals foolishly elected the worst choice of all, Dion, a Chretien-era cabinet minister from Quebec. How were they supposed to distance themselves from the sponsorship scandal with him at the helm? It makes no difference that he was never found to be involved (just like Paul Martin, but that didn't stop Harper from attacking him over it and making it the central theme of the last two elections).

So as a Liberal, I'm hoping the next election will have a similar result as the last -- a small Conservative minority that will lead to Dion resigning and a better leader brought in. Hopefully this time McKenna or Tobin can be coaxed into running.

As per Afghanistan:

One of my best friends is a Canadian soldier who has completed two tours over there (so far). Several men from his unit -- a few of them close friends of his -- were killed in the line of duty. When I asked him about his thoughts on the mission, he said, "It's not worth it for me or my friends to die in this POS country."

Make of that what you will.

[flamey_mcflame]

I love how people have turned this into revitalizing and "freeing" the people of Afghanistan. The mentality is our western and ethnocentric bias. I wonder if another country came here and invaded Canada because they believed there was too much porn and drugs. I wonder what our response would be? Exactly.
If you want to label all Afghani's that rebel against NATO as taliban, well whatever. I bet there are many Afghani's who resent western countries coming in and dictating to them what they can or cannot do in their own country.

Three years later, you would figure that Afghani's truly wanted change, there would have been drastic change by now. After all, by our own studies and polls, the majority of Afghanistan want change. And there is really no change occurring. How many Afghani's do you think who are waiting for us to leave so they can return to their strict muslim traditions? How many Afghani's( even the ones who want our help) feel that they are being ruled by a foreign occupier in their own country?

Hey, If the USSR( yeah those guys..remember) could not overpower the Afghan nation, NATO and their troops certainly will not. Nothing will change when its all said and done, whether it's 5 or 15 from now. Hey, if the majority of that country truly wanted change, you'd see an uprising of such proportions that all NATO would have to do is just sit and watch.

I hate wasting Canadian money on quagmires. Of course, all you people who believe this is for humanitarian purposes will be all for helping the 50+ plus countries in Africa who are being suppressed by dictators too. Lets just spend all our money on fixing the impossible. Here's a better idea, lets go back to the way it was. Nobody really hates us and 9/11 was not an attack against us. Lets get out of spending billions for no gain. And take those billions and spend it in Canada, or even better, reduce our taxes. Hmmm...spend money wisely vs. throwing it down the toilet. Tough choice.

[Ayrahb]

Please God, let there be a draft.

Seriously, though, I think the decision on keeping Canada in a war should be with the soldiers and their families, not the liberal politicians or the right wing militants who are all for killing the infidels, but lack the testes to enlist.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by flamey_mcflame

I love how people have turned this into revitalizing and "freeing" the people of Afghanistan. The mentality is our western and ethnocentric bias. I wonder if another country came here and invaded Canada because they believed there was too much porn and drugs. I wonder what our response would be? Exactly.
If you want to label all Afghani's that rebel against NATO as taliban, well whatever. I bet there are many Afghani's who resent western countries coming in and dictating to them what they can or cannot do in their own country.

Three years later, you would figure that Afghani's truly wanted change, there would have been drastic change by now. After all, by our own studies and polls, the majority of Afghanistan want change. And there is really no change occurring. How many Afghani's do you think who are waiting for us to leave so they can return to their strict muslim traditions? How many Afghani's( even the ones who want our help) feel that they are being ruled by a foreign occupier in their own country?

Hey, If the USSR( yeah those guys..remember) could not overpower the Afghan nation, NATO and their troops certainly will not. Nothing will change when its all said and done, whether it's 5 or 15 from now. Hey, if the majority of that country truly wanted change, you'd see an uprising of such proportions that all NATO would have to do is just sit and watch.

I hate wasting Canadian money on quagmires. Of course, all you people who believe this is for humanitarian purposes will be all for helping the 50+ plus countries in Africa who are being suppressed by dictators too. Lets just spend all our money on fixing the impossible. Here's a better idea, lets go back to the way it was. Nobody really hates us and 9/11 was not an attack against us. Lets get out of spending billions for no gain. And take those billions and spend it in Canada, or even better, reduce our taxes. Hmmm...spend money wisely vs. throwing it down the toilet. Tough choice.

In the Taliban version of Islam, we're infidel's all the same. London got bombed, Spain got bombed, and we thwarted a local attempt. Maybe if you ignore it and pretend it's not there, it'll disappear.

[FlamesAddiction]

I'm a fence sitter on this issue, but lean towards the anti-war side.

Reason against the Afghan mission:

1) Our military should be for self-defense purposes only IMO.
2) Not only am I not convinced that the Afghan mission improves our security, but I think it more likely hurts it.
3) In a world as screwed up as this one, you have to pick and choose your causes. I don't think putting money and lives into Afghanistan should be the #1 priority for us.
4) It's not our job to secure another country's regime or to build "democracy".
5) Going by history, I doubt Aghanistan's society or culture will allow this war to be "won". There will always be extremism there, and they will always require our assistance. I don't want to be there forever.
6) I don't trust the current regime and I don't think they are doing enough themselves to deserve our help.

Reasons for the war:

1) We're there now, so it makes sense to at least try to make it better.
2) Our allies will be left there if we go, and it may hurt relations. Something that might hurt us in the future especially when some countries are eying the NW passage.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

What does it take? Why wont the opposition parties do the right thing? The bloc and NDP are just as bad. Give your head a shake Dion.

So three out of four parties are "bad" (wrong?). 64% (forgive the crappy metric) of Canada agrees with something "bad"? Or maybe it's the 36% who are out to lunch? I don't think it's either. I don't think it can be dichotomized like that. To presume what you are presuming is ignorant though, to be sure.

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

The guy is pandering to the gutless portion of society

This is not a fair statement. In fact, I find it quite offensive.

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Thats what infuriates me the most.. They should be all for sticking with it.. Instead they try and buy votes in Quebec (where the majority of the antiware sentiment lies)

This is a non sequitur. They started it, therefore they must support finishing it? Sorry, that doesn't follow in the slightest. The only thing infuriating is your lack of logic fundamentals.

Originally Posted by flamey_mcflame

I love how people have turned this into revitalizing and "freeing" the people of Afghanistan. The mentality is our western and ethnocentric bias. I wonder if another country came here and invaded Canada because they believed there was too much porn and drugs. I wonder what our response would be? Exactly.

This is a great post. This is one of the biggest reasons I am against this war. But the human race through all of history has thought itself the best there is or ever could be, on a global scale and on a provincial scale. Most of this attitude has drifted away (geocentric universe for example) but some provincial attitudes still exist, evidenced by wars built on ignorant attitudes like this.

Originally Posted by Ayrahb

Please God, let there be a draft.

If such a thing were ever to happen in this country for a war as pointless as this one, I would be eating swedish meatballs in Stockholm before you could say "tre kronor".

But then again, I'm gutless.