Embrace Diversity? More PC stuff

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

I agree with you, but at the same time the opposite practise still exists in many companies. Minorities (especially females) still make less then their counterparts when all other factors are held equal, so maybe some sort of affirmative action is unfortunatley necessary.

i've always loved to hear people trying to rationalize discrimination used to fight discrimination. it gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling inside.

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I don't like being categorized

I don't think they'll deny you admission to the University of California (or anywhere else, I hope) because you didn't check off the box next to Asian. If they did, well then that's a whole other kettle of fish.

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I attend classes and try to get my diploma like anyone else. I party like anyone else. I procrastinate. I try not to plagerize! I listen to Overtime while trying to study and curse the flames at the same time. What useful information could the university possibly have that would help me without hurting you!

I don't think the University of Calgary knowing that you're Asian hurts me in any way.

I think their justification would go something like this...

What if you're actually from Pacific Asian Island X but get lumped into the homogeneous Asian category. University statistics show that the average grade for the Asian category is a solid B+ and is actually ahead of the game relative to other categories.

Not everyone in the Asian category achieves uniformly awesome grades. In fact, people from Pacific Asian Island X actually do really bad in math. Apparently, the number 3 wasn't introduced there until 1994.

If you had a way of teasing apart the data from the Asian category, you might be able to find out that people from PAIX are doing bad in math and take steps to help them out.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by fredr123

Data collected in California used an older categorization of Asians. The system used by the feds on the census brokedown the Asian group even further. Maybe Brazilian is already broken down further? Not sure.

Asians made up something like 32% (or 23%, sometimes I'm dyslexic) of the UC student body. With a group that large, it might make sense to refine your categories and get some more useful information from your data.

Of course, out of the remaining 68-77%, how many are white caucasians? Why don't they break that down into English, Welsh, Irish, German, Norwegian, Lithuanian, Lichtensteinian, Luxembourgeois, Slovenian, Greek, Belorussian etc. Sometimes you might see Caucasian, Slavic, Latino covering your typical "white" races.

Somebody probably complained because Japanese, Koreans and Chinese traditionally (pardon the stereotype if you're Asian and don't care if some goofy whitey mixes it up) don't like being confused for one another. I've hears this from several people who have lived in one of those countries, or are from one of those countries by birth or ancestry. Someone probably was called Chinese once too many times and got fed up... the result is this.

But that is in essence the basis of modern "Political Correctness." It has become less about rooting out persecution when it exists and more about exaserbating instances of ignorance or perceived intolerance. Hell, I've been told I look Italian, Spanish, English, French, Portugese, Russian, German, Canadian (?), American (?), Argentine... and I didn't get offended that I'm only really one of those by ancestry.

*The (?) is cause of the sheer ignorance of the comment, what does a Canadian or American really look like... they're multicultural.

I also have a real case with Affirmative Action. Two wrongs don't make a right. I have never discriminated against individuals on the color of their skin or their religion, or culture. Why should I be discriminated against in return because some redneck did in an isolated incident.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by fredr123

I don't think they'll deny you admission to the University of California (or anywhere else, I hope) because you didn't check off the box next to Asian. If they did, well then that's a whole other kettle of fish.



I don't think the University of Calgary knowing that you're Asian hurts me in any way.

I think their justification would go something like this...

What if you're actually from Pacific Asian Island X but get lumped into the homogeneous Asian category. University statistics show that the average grade for the Asian category is a solid B+ and is actually ahead of the game relative to other categories.

Not everyone in the Asian category achieves uniformly awesome grades. In fact, people from Pacific Asian Island X actually do really bad in math. Apparently, the number 3 wasn't introduced there until 1994.

If you had a way of teasing apart the data from the Asian category, you might be able to find out that people from PAIX are doing bad in math and take steps to help them out.

I would agree with your analysis 100% if it were jr. high or high school where everyone has to take every course and categorizing kids by what subjects they're good at might help in the long run.

But this is university. At this point I think you take the courses you're good at towards an occupation you like and fend for yourself.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

I also have a real case with Affirmative Action. Two wrongs don't make a right. I have never discriminated against individuals on the color of their skin or their religion, or culture. Why should I be discriminated against in return because some redneck did in an isolated incident.

Anytime an application for a job/school/scholarship asks me for ethnicity, I know I'm screwed because I'm Chinese, and it's no longer hip to hand everything to the Chinese on a silver platter, like for blacks and natives. (How's that for a non-PC statement? )

I remember one of my applications said that preference would be given to ethnic minorities. I was like WTF!

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by fredr123

I don't think they'll deny you admission to the University of California (or anywhere else, I hope) because you didn't check off the box next to Asian. If they did, well then that's a whole other kettle of fish.

I don't think the University of Calgary knowing that you're Asian hurts me in any way.

Then why ask on an admission form? What possible use is knowing ethnicity in determining a qualified applicant?

If some type of quota system is not in place, why would they need to know then? Why not have an online demographic survey in Peoplesoft/Infonet/Blackboard if that information is pertinent for knowing the make-up of the school.

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I would agree with your analysis 100% if it were jr. high or high school where everyone has to take every course and categorizing kids by what subjects they're good at might help in the long run.

But this is university. At this point I think you take the courses you're good at towards an occupation you like and fend for yourself.

Fair enough, but there are still some required courses even at the University of Calgary, right? You have to take an English class, for example.

In any event, my dumb example could be expanded to include something other than academics. Maybe it's suicide rates or stress levels. Maybe you look at graduation rates and find out that PAIX students drop out at a much higher rate than cohorts in other Asian categories.

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Then why ask on an admission form? What possible use is knowing ethnicity in determining a qualified applicant?

See my other posts. It's not hurting me at all to know GS is Asian. I have no problem with her volunteering that information, especially if there's even a small chance that it could be of some benefit to her or help her overcome some sort of disadvantage.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by fredr123

Fair enough, but there are still some required courses even at the University of Calgary, right? You have to take an English class, for example.

In any event, my dumb example could be expanded to include something other than academics. Maybe it's suicide rates or stress levels. Maybe you look at graduation rates and find out that PAIX students drop out at a much higher rate than cohorts in other Asian categories.

You raise a great point about suicide rates and stress levels but that has more to do with family pride and over-bearing/unrealistic MOMS then the education system itself.

The university is a competition. The students who do well make it and those that can't get the good grades have to drop out.

It's a good appetizer for something that's called .. real life!

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by fredr123

Fair enough, but there are still some required courses even at the University of Calgary, right? You have to take an English class, for example.

really?! uh oh - better return my degree from the U of C cause i didn't take an english class while i was there.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

i've always loved to hear people trying to rationalize discrimination used to fight discrimination. it gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling inside.

You're right, I'm not really trying to rationalize it, just stating that there are still issues with descriminitory hiring practices, and I can understand why people want to combat those, even if affirmative action may be the wrong way of doing so.
I agree with the intent, but not the practice.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

really?! uh oh - better return my degree from the U of C cause i didn't take an english class while i was there.

Did you take the English lit test? or whatever it's called.
There is an English requirement at the UofC which can be met by taking an English course or writing a test.

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

really?! uh oh - better return my degree from the U of C cause i didn't take an english class while i was there.

Could have sworn I was required to take an English course and had to choose between poetry, dramatic literature and something else. Maybe it's not part of the requirements for every department.

http://www.ucalgary.ca/pubs/calendar...am_details.htm

As an example, looks like a few of the science concentrations are required to take a junior English course.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Did you take the English lit test? or whatever it's called.
There is an English requirement at the UofC which can be met by taking an English course or writing a test.

true, you can meet the requirement through high school or writing a short essay showing you have a reasonable command of grammar or taking an english class. but an english class is not mandatory for the engineering department.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by fredr123

See my other posts. It's not hurting me at all to know GS is Asian. I have no problem with her volunteering that information, especially if there's even a small chance that it could be of some benefit to her or help her overcome some sort of disadvantage.

But by that, you're creating another disadvantage for someone else.

Say you have the following scenario:

200 people applying for Graduate Studies in History. There are 20 spots.

Of the candidates the ethnic breakdown is as follows:
155 Caucasian
30 Asian
5 Middle Eastern
5 African
3 First Nations
2 South American Latino

By achievement and merit, the Top 20 look like this:

16 Caucasian
3 Asian
1 Middle Eastern


Now, lets say that innocent looking ethnicity question is a link to a quota that states that all visible minority groups as well as status First Nation students must have at least one representative.

Now your Top 20 ends up looking like this:
14 Caucasian
2 Asian
1 Middle Eastern
1 African
1 First Nation
1 South American Latino

Because of this, two Caucasian students and one Asian student lost their position that they earned, by merit, because their skin was the wrong color. Sounds wrong to me.

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Did you take the English lit test? or whatever it's called.
There is an English requirement at the UofC which can be met by taking an English course or writing a test.

That's the effective writing requirement. That applies to everyone and you can meet it by writing a test or by sufficient high school performance.

I'm talking about something different.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by fredr123

That's the effective writing requirement. That applies to everyone and you can meet it by writing a test or by sufficient high school performance.

I'm talking about something different.

well, then it doesn't exist for the engineering department. can't speak for the rest of them.

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

But by that, you're creating another disadvantage for someone else.

Say you have the following scenario:

200 people applying for Graduate Studies in History. There are 20 spots.

Of the candidates the ethnic breakdown is as follows:
155 Caucasian
30 Asian
5 Middle Eastern
5 African
3 First Nations
2 South American Latino

By achievement and merit, the Top 20 look like this:

16 Caucasian
3 Asian
1 Middle Eastern


Now, lets say that innocent looking ethnicity question is a link to a quota that states that all visible minority groups as well as status First Nation students must have at least one representative.

Now your Top 20 ends up looking like this:
14 Caucasian
2 Asian
1 Middle Eastern
1 African
1 First Nation
1 South American Latino

Because of this, two Caucasian students and one Asian student lost their position that they earned, by merit, because their skin was the wrong color. Sounds wrong to me.

At no point did I advocate what you are proposing above. I'll have to double check the links posted thus far, but I don't think they were proposing to use this data for that kind of thing either.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by fredr123

At no point did I advocate what you are proposing above. I'll have to double check the links posted thus far, but I don't think they were proposing to use this data for that kind of thing either.

Maybe our wires crossed somewhere. I apologize if I wrongly assumed you meant you were in favor of asking ethnicity on application forms to mitigate any lingering disadvantage.

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Maybe our wires crossed somewhere. I apologize if I wrongly assumed you meant you were in favor of asking ethnicity on application forms to mitigate any lingering disadvantage.

For what it's worth, I agree that something doesn't smell right if you are using ethnicity to determine admission if it means qualified students lose out because of their skin colour.

I got the impression that the Count Me In program was designed to help out students who were already admitted to the University of California. It was to help identify areas for improvement that the administration may have been overlooking to help people from all over the world feel welcomed and achieve to their potential. I'm okay with that.