No bon voyage for Arafat from Conservatives

[RougeUnderoos]

Nice grand-slam + 1 Sammie. 5 in a row has got to be a new record.

Stockwell might not have moved in the same circles as the holocaust-deniers (though it certainly wouldn't surprise me if he had) but he most definitely hangs out with fanatical close-minded idiots.

He believes (and doesn't deny that he believes it) that the earth is 6000 years old and that humans interacted with dinosaurs. In other words, he is an idiot. Anyone who believes that is an idiot. The people that he hangs out with that believe this are idiots. Fanatical, close-minded idiots.

[Sammie]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Nov 24 2004, 09:33 PM
Nice grand-slam + 1 Sammie.# 5 in a row has got to be a new record.

Stockwell might not have moved in the same circles as the holocaust-deniers (though it certainly wouldn't surprise me if he had) but he most definitely hangs out with fanatical close-minded idiots.

He believes (and doesn't deny that he believes it) that the earth is 6000 years old and that humans interacted with dinosaurs.# In other words, he is an idiot.# Anyone who believes that is an idiot.# The people that he hangs out with that believe this are idiots.# Fanatical, close-minded idiots.

That seems like a pretty close-minded statement to me.

I've met Stockwell Day a few times. H's a very likable person with a great sense of humor who cares a great deal about people. In my judgment, he would never impose his beliefs on others. His advice to people who lobbied him about funding for private education was to tell them, "If you want more funding for private education, move the political fences. Until then I can do nothing for you."

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Sammie+Nov 24 2004, 08:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Nov 24 2004, 08:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RougeUnderoos@Nov 24 2004, 09:33 PM
Nice grand-slam + 1 Sammie.# 5 in a row has got to be a new record.

Stockwell might not have moved in the same circles as the holocaust-deniers (though it certainly wouldn't surprise me if he had) but he most definitely hangs out with fanatical close-minded idiots.

He believes (and doesn't deny that he believes it) that the earth is 6000 years old and that humans interacted with dinosaurs.# In other words, he is an idiot.# Anyone who believes that is an idiot.# The people that he hangs out with that believe this are idiots.# Fanatical, close-minded idiots.

That seems like a pretty close-minded statement to me.

I've met Stockwell Day a few times. H's a very likable person with a great sense of humor who cares a great deal about people. In my judgment, he would never impose his beliefs on others. His advice to people who lobbied him about funding for private education was to tell them, "If you want more funding for private education, move the political fences. Until then I can do nothing for you." [/b][/quote]
I suppose it is a close-minded statement. I'm a pretty open-minded guy, but nobody is ever going to convince me to even consider the hocus-pocus and silly superstition that Stockwell Day believes in.

I don't care if he's the nicest guy in town -- if he believes that the earth is 6000 years old he is an idiot.

[Sammie]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Nov 24 2004, 10:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Nov 24 2004, 10:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

That seems like a pretty close-minded statement to me.

I've met Stockwell Day a few times. H's a very likable person with a great sense of humor who cares a great deal about people. In my judgment, he would never impose his beliefs on others. His advice to people who lobbied him about funding for private education was to tell them, "If you want more funding for private education, move the political fences. Until then I can do nothing for you."

I suppose it is a close-minded statement. I'm a pretty open-minded guy, but nobody is ever going to convince me to even consider the hocus-pocus and silly superstition that Stockwell Day believes in.

I don't care if he's the nicest guy in town -- if he believes that the earth is 6000 years old he is an idiot.[/b][/quote]
I suppose that you're a strong believer in evolution and that we all walked out of the ocean two-by-two as fish, procreated, multiplied and eventually evolved into man and woman billions of years down the evolution chain. All by chance and without a creator.

Even if you're a big believer in the big bang theory, there had to be something to go "bang" in the first place, and something had to cause it to go "bang".

You would have to have a pretty firm belief system to be sold on evolution. I wonder how many people REALLY think the theory of evolution through from beginning to end. It requires exact timing for male and female of each species to arrive on earth at same time, find each other, and multiply.

Who makes the greater step in faith to believe what they believe? The Christian or the evolutionist? Who is more involved in "hocus-pocus and silly superstition"?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Sammie@Nov 24 2004, 10:30 PM
I suppose that you're a strong believer in evolution and that we all walked out of the ocean two-by-two as fish, procreated, multiplied and eventually evolved into man and woman billions of years down the evolution chain. All by chance and without a creator.

Even if you're a big believer in the big bang theory, there had to be something to go "bang" in the first place, and something had to cause it to go "bang".

You would have to have a pretty firm belief system to be sold on evolution. I wonder how many people REALLY think the theory of evolution through from beginning to end. It requires exact timing for male and female of each species to arrive on earth at same time, find each other, and multiply.

Who makes the greater step in faith to believe what they believe? The Christian or the evolutionist? Who is more involved in "hocus-pocus and silly superstition"?

You've got a pretty messed-up concept of evolution. No wonder you don't buy it.

If I were you I wouldn't assume that a person can't be an evolutionist and a Christian at the same time. The Pope is (assuming that papist fits your vision).

Even if you're a big believer in the big bang theory, there had to be something to go "bang" in the first place, and something had to cause it to go "bang".

Good point. I was commenting on the "earth is 6000 years old" idea though and that is very different than what you suggested in the above paragraph.

You would have to have a pretty firm belief system to be sold on evolution. I wonder how many people REALLY think the theory of evolution through from beginning to end. It requires exact timing for male and female of each species to arrive on earth at same time, find each other, and multiply.

Fair enough. I also wonder how many people REALLY think the theory of creation through from beginning to end. If you think evolution is farfetched...

[Sammie]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Nov 25 2004, 12:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Nov 25 2004, 12:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Sammie@Nov 24 2004, 10:30 PM
I suppose that you're a strong believer in evolution and that we all walked out of the ocean two-by-two as fish, procreated, multiplied and eventually evolved into man and woman billions of years down the evolution chain. All by chance and without a creator.

Even if you're a big believer in the big bang theory, there had to be something to go "bang" in the first place, and something had to cause it to go "bang".

You would have to have a pretty firm belief system to be sold on evolution. I wonder how many people REALLY think the theory of evolution through from beginning to end. It requires exact timing for male and female of each species to arrive on earth at same time, find each other, and multiply.

Who makes the greater step in faith to believe what they believe? The Christian or the evolutionist? Who is more involved in "hocus-pocus and silly superstition"?

You've got a pretty messed-up concept of evolution. No wonder you don't buy it.

If I were you I wouldn't assume that a person can't be an evolutionist and a Christian at the same time. The Pope is (assuming that papist fits your vision).

Even if you're a big believer in the big bang theory, there had to be something to go "bang" in the first place, and something had to cause it to go "bang".

Good point. I was commenting on the "earth is 6000 years old" idea though and that is very different than what you suggested in the above paragraph.

You would have to have a pretty firm belief system to be sold on evolution. I wonder how many people REALLY think the theory of evolution through from beginning to end. It requires exact timing for male and female of each species to arrive on earth at same time, find each other, and multiply.

Fair enough. I also wonder how many people REALLY think the theory of creation through from beginning to end. If you think evolution is farfetched...[/b][/quote]
I've simplified evolution but there is no doubt in my mind. It's a religion.

Life isn't black and white. There's a lot of grey we've got to sort through to get to what's black and white. I never said people don't believe both all I asked was which side has more hocus-pocus and silly superstition.

Whether the universe was created in six 24-days or six days lasting 10 or 100 millions years is irrelevant. It certainly didn't happen by chance. If the God of the Christians and Jews is the creator, he has the power to do it any way He chooses. He could even have caused whatever went bang to go "bang" in the big bang theory. We have no proof what happened way back then. It's all speculation and conjecture.

Besides, who REALLY cares? Probably people who think Christians and Jews are full of hocus-pocus and silly superstition.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Sammie@Nov 24 2004, 11:44 PM


Besides, who REALLY cares? Probably people who think Christians and Jews are full of hocus-pocus and silly superstition.

I REALLY care because, umm, I am alive and I'm kinda curious. Aren't you?

Your hamfisted attempts at painting me as anti-Christian and anti-Semitic would be insulting if they weren't so pathetic.

I never said people don't believe both all I asked was which side has more hocus-pocus and silly superstition.

Well since you asked, the side that believes the earth is 6000 years old has a lot more hocus-pocus and superstition. Come to think of it, they don't have a lot more hocus-pocus and superstition, they have nothing but hocus-pocus and superstition.

[Savvy27]

Originally posted by Sammie@Nov 25 2004, 05:30 AM
Who makes the greater step in faith to believe what they believe? The Christian or the evolutionist? Who is more involved in "hocus-pocus and silly superstition"?

Well the Literalist Christian is taking the greater step. One person is acknowledging the FACT that there is evidence of evolution and that over billions of years life has evolved to the point that we are at.

The other is convinced that a big invisible man decided one day that he wanted some friends, so in a week he created a universe to chill out in. (Unfortunately He, being so busy, missed a talking snake slithering around and peer pressuring people into messing everything up)

Now I apologize for entering the discussion so late but honestly to question whether evolution or christianity involve more hocus pocus and superstition is too much for me to handle.

I'm not denying the existence of God Sammie, in fact I agree with you that its pretty unlikely that everything came from nothing. But attempting to deny evolution to cling on to religious beliefs is truly stupid. Stockwell Day fits into this category.

As for the Arafat thing, I'm not suprised. Any party with Rob Anders still kicking around would have to sink pretty low to suprise me.

[Ace]

I don't like chiming in on these either, because it's pointless to convince somebody that what you believe is true, without them looking for the truth themselves. But I just wanted to point out that Stockwell Day's beliefs aren’t crazy. It's pretty simple; geologists determine the earth’s age by examining the layers of the earth’s surface. Now a Christian, such as Stockwell day, believes that the Bible is the literal word of God and their proof is that it is able to prove and confirm itself. Jesus is a literal fulfillment of many Biblical prophecies written years earlier. Anyways, so now with this belief, you would also believe that God, some time after he created the earth, created a great flood in which water covered the entire earth for 150 days after the rain stopped. Now to my point, the geologists who calculate the earth’s age are using a calculation, which does not take into account any kind of catastrophic event like this altering the earth’s sediment layers. I think it's safe to assume that if you believe that the earth was flooded to this degree that, there would be rapid aging of the layers of the earth that could not be accurately calculated by the measures we have established based on our examination of earth in the last 2000 years.

[Ace]

Originally posted by fotze@Nov 25 2004, 11:00 AM
Maybe it sped up the aging process (don't agree but I will give you it), but there is a big difference between 2000 years and say 570 million years, the age of the pre-cambrain formation. The earth probably had many many floods and ice ages.

Actually just re-read your post. Are you serious?

It's not my position, just defending his position. It's a probable explanation which makes it not crazy. I honestly don't have a solid opinion on the issue since I don't really believe it is that important. On the other hand many Christians believe in a "Gap" theory in which they say there is a period of millions of years that takes place between the first and second day of creation.

As for the sediment thing, keep in mind that they measure millions of years by centimeters and inches, it is very easy to mess up any calculation involving such small degrees of measurement.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Ace@Nov 25 2004, 04:48 PM
I don't like chiming in on these either, because it's pointless to convince somebody that what you believe is true, without them looking for the truth themselves. But I just wanted to point out that Stockwell Day's beliefs aren’t crazy. It's pretty simple; geologists determine the earth’s age by examining the layers of the earth’s surface. Now a Christian, such as Stockwell day, believes that the Bible is the literal word of God and their proof is that it is able to prove and confirm itself. Jesus is a literal fulfillment of many Biblical prophecies written years earlier. Anyways, so now with this belief, you would also believe that God, some time after he created the earth, created a great flood in which water covered the entire earth for 150 days after the rain stopped. Now to my point, the geologists who calculate the earth’s age are using a calculation, which does not take into account any kind of catastrophic event like this altering the earth’s sediment layers. I think it's safe to assume that if you believe that the earth was flooded to this degree that, there would be rapid aging of the layers of the earth that could not be accurately calculated by the measures we have established based on our examination of earth in the last 2000 years.

But I just wanted to point out that Stockwell Day's beliefs aren’t crazy.

Its crazy.

If someone comes along and tells me a supreme being sprouted the universe out of a point of light, engaging matter and even time in that instant, I would say: "Okay, that makes about as much sense as anything else we know about." I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand even though its improbable.

When someone comes along and says the world is 5000 years old, dinosaurs never happened, etc, . . . . . that's just plain nuts. I have no patience for it. None.

And scientists are well aware of periodic "great floods," including the periodic flooding of the Mediterranean basin, the breaching of ice dams over the USA midwest, the catastrophic tidal effects created by comets and meteors hitting the planet and even the floodplains of Mars.

Cowperson

[jonesy]

Recorded time since Adam was about 6000 years, there are geneologies to show that with many strange sounding names (believe it or not, up to you)

To disregad dinosaurs is kind of goofy. I have never heard Day say that so if you have heard him, fine, I"ll take your word for it.

As pointed out, there is nothing to suggest that Adam came along right after the earth was created. Between the time of earths creation (by a boom, or by a God making a boom) and Adam could have been millions of years, dinosaurs wandering around, angels, demons, all the things of old lore. There are hints of an earth covering flood which was pre Adamic and that Noahs flood was more regional. I have somewhat seriously looked at these things and that is my belief. Here is my suggested timeline:

1. God created earth (as good as a gas coming from nowhere and blowing up with some energy from nowhere)
2. Earth goes wild, dinosaurs, demons, angels, some type of prehistoric humans. Lasts untold millions of years.
3. Big earth covering flood, wipes out everything (including the legendary Atlantis)
4. More time passes...
5. Adam comes along 6000 years ago
6. Noah's flood (regional, not everything wiped out)
7. Flames go to SCF some thousand years later

[RougeUnderoos]

What evidence do you have of demons and angels?

Dinosaurs are not a thing of "old lore". They are not a belief.

[jonesy]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Nov 25 2004, 07:15 PM
What evidence do you have of demons and angels?

Dinosaurs are not a thing of "old lore". They are not a belief.

By old lore I meant all the tales of hideous monsters, fantastic cites that vanished under the sea and such. Almost every culture has legends that are similar enough to indicate that there was some type of huge flood in the distant past. Most even talk about advanced civilizations and certainly have monsters. Dinsaurs are a part of it that are, as you say, not a belief.

The evidence of demons of angels, I have none except some Biblical passages, certainly not enough to prove it.