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Old 11-23-2004, 12:01 AM   #21
Sammie
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Quote:
Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Nov 22 2004, 11:46 PM
No I'm not trying to make it appear that you are saying something you didn't so I asked a very straightforward question.

"Casualties caused by fighting in wars between soldiers, terrorists, insurgents, guerillas, and rebels don't count."

I'm willing to wager a considerable sum that they do in fact "count".# I guarantee they "count" to the families of the dead people.

Tens of thousands of innocent civilians have died during the "War On Terror" so I don't think I agree with your assertion that "our western governments are principled and value all human lives".# The "value all human lives" thing just doesn't mesh with the concept of "collateral damage".

Multiple Choice Question Time:

I would prefer my wife/child/mom/friend killed by:

A: cruise missile
B: suicide bomber
C: daisy cutter
D: all of the above
If we're such terrible people over here why don't you move over to Iraq or the Palestinian Territory where people are so much better? In the mean time, you still haven't backed up your position with any statistical facts. All you've done made are baseless accusations and innuendoes. If you want to convince me, give me facts and info. Some of your other comments above are ridiculous and not worth responding to.
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Old 11-23-2004, 12:06 AM   #22
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did the germans set up elections for the french or were they just trying to rebuild it? i watch too much cnn
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Old 11-23-2004, 12:12 AM   #23
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Originally posted by Looger+Nov 23 2004, 12:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Looger @ Nov 23 2004, 12:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Sammie@Nov 23 2004, 04:07 AM
Casualties caused by fighting in wars between soldiers, terrorists, insurgents, guerillas, and rebels don't count. Our soldiers also don't hide behind civilian human shields (made up of women and children) in mosques and churches. Thankfully most of our western governments are principled and value all human lives.
so, let me get this straight.

the west, us, is always right.

so, when we invade a country, with planes, bombs, guns, and the like, we are obviously coming in with the best possible intentions and all the people should welcome us, right?

and when civilian centers start blowing up, not because terrorists are hiding in front of them, but because oppostion could use it, then that's all ok, right?

if country A invaded my country, country B, to oust a leader that did almost all of his bad bad things to countries B, C, D, etc. whilst country A stood by him, i would be less than amused.

point of fact i would probably resist.

and all those french resistance heroes from WW2, dressing as civilians, they were right to oppose their occupier, but the iraqis are... wrong, right?

look at a picture of a city in the mideast. mosques dominate, they are tall and make great sniper positions.

and guerilla warfare puts the civilians you're trying to liberate near the bottom of the priority list, somewhere slightly above the unwanted guests in your home. standard procedure.

as for palestinians, most alive today have known only the struggle. they have nothing else. point of fact their entire national identity was forged by israeli beligerrence - many israel apologists will tell you that the zionists bought the land off the arabs - one of the most pervasive fallacies ever. in a sense they are right - some jews bought some land off some arabs. they bought the land off _some_ arabs alright, in damascus and riyadh etc. that probably had never been to palestine. the people on the land were not exactly consulted - just their absentee landlords, chosen by the west, of course.

i mean, sure, whatever, wrong place, wrong time, right? i mean it's not like talmudic prophecy calls on jews to put all of the people living in reborn israel to the sword, man, woman and child, right? it's so obviously not religious extremism when it's not muslims, right? and it's not like the knesset has anywhere from 5-10% religious extremists signing into any coalition that promises settlements will remain, right?

religious violence is religious violence, and deaths are deaths.

your "right" and "wrong" seem to be tied to sides, but i'm here to tell you that there are only two sides - an individual and the people invading his home.

when you stand on someone's throat don't look shocked when they kick you in the balls.[/b][/quote]
Who are these people that are resisting in Iraq? GIVE ME SOME FACTS not all this senseless drivel.
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Old 11-23-2004, 12:23 AM   #24
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Just to tenuously wade into this argument, I would guess that a good deal of the Iraqi Resistance is comprised of remnants of the Saddam Hussein regime; i.e. local warlords and their respective posses not keen on relinquishing what power and privilege they've grown accustomed to.

The former infrastructure may have been toppled, but peons remain. And they're p*ssed.

I don't think they're altruistic in the least bit.
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Old 11-23-2004, 12:23 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by badnarik@Nov 23 2004, 07:06 AM
did the germans set up elections for the french or were they just trying to rebuild it? i watch too much cnn
dammit, i nearly spilled my cheetos!

that is kinda funny.
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Old 11-23-2004, 12:30 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sammie@Nov 23 2004, 07:12 AM
Who are these people that are resisting in Iraq? GIVE ME SOME FACTS not all this senseless drivel.
Reggie Dunlop:
The former infrastructure may have been toppled, but peons remain. And they're p*ssed.

I don't think they're altruistic in the least bit.


what he said.

most of these whack-jobs that started the insurgency are just the former peons, power brokers, back-stabbers, the usual drivel that sneaks into power during the reign of a tyrant like saddam.

but lately the religious extremists that saddam had groiund under his iron jackboot for twenty odd years have begun to emerge from their holes in the ground (no pun intended).

and i'd be willing to wager that when the shooting dies down a bit, lots of the insurgents are probably normal iraqis that aren't seeing this better life promised by the latest tyrant in their lives.

sensless drivel, you mean like this?

It never fails to amaze me how quickly people forgive and forget how unforgiving, intolerant, cruel, and abusive these people are--all under the pretense of the Islamic faith.

before i give you all my 'facts and figures' (like the israeli website above with facts and figures, say), why don't you qualify your own drivel before asking me to qualify mine?
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Old 11-23-2004, 01:13 AM   #27
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Originally posted by Looger+Nov 23 2004, 01:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Looger @ Nov 23 2004, 01:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Sammie@Nov 23 2004, 07:12 AM
Who are these people that are resisting in Iraq? GIVE ME SOME FACTS not all this senseless drivel.
Reggie Dunlop:
The former infrastructure may have been toppled, but peons remain. And they're p*ssed.

I don't think they're altruistic in the least bit.


what he said.

most of these whack-jobs that started the insurgency are just the former peons, power brokers, back-stabbers, the usual drivel that sneaks into power during the reign of a tyrant like saddam.

but lately the religious extremists that saddam had groiund under his iron jackboot for twenty odd years have begun to emerge from their holes in the ground (no pun intended).

and i'd be willing to wager that when the shooting dies down a bit, lots of the insurgents are probably normal iraqis that aren't seeing this better life promised by the latest tyrant in their lives.

sensless drivel, you mean like this?

It never fails to amaze me how quickly people forgive and forget how unforgiving, intolerant, cruel, and abusive these people are--all under the pretense of the Islamic faith.

before i give you all my 'facts and figures' (like the israeli website above with facts and figures, say), why don't you qualify your own drivel before asking me to qualify mine?[/b][/quote]
Your the one telling us what terrible people we are. You go first. Give me your proof. So far you're all accusations and no substance. If you want to convince people like me of the errors of our way, you've got to present your case with relevant facts and information. Cut the FUD and let's have a meaningful discussion about what's REALLY happening over there instead of talking in circles and saying nothing.

As far as your Israel website goes, the one statistic that stood out for me was: 27 Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli civilians versus 484 Israeli civilians killed by Palestinian civilians. Those cruel Israelis!!
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Old 11-23-2004, 07:11 AM   #28
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and over 3000 palestinian civilians killed by the IDF/IAF.

hey, just bringing a little gray to the discussion, this is not a black and white "they're bad, we're good" or as you allege i think, "we're bad, they're good".

we're in the middle of their sh*t, all the time.

keep that in mind.

the western world faces dangers that must be dealt with, including terrorism. i just fail to see that we're making the correct moves. if we think they're all "bad over there" and want to kill us all because we're not muslims, then i have little hope for the western world.
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Old 11-23-2004, 10:47 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sammie+Nov 23 2004, 12:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Nov 23 2004, 12:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RougeUnderoos@Nov 22 2004, 11:46 PM
No I'm not trying to make it appear that you are saying something you didn't so I asked a very straightforward question.

"Casualties caused by fighting in wars between soldiers, terrorists, insurgents, guerillas, and rebels don't count."

I'm willing to wager a considerable sum that they do in fact "count".# I guarantee they "count" to the families of the dead people.

Tens of thousands of innocent civilians have died during the "War On Terror" so I don't think I agree with your assertion that "our western governments are principled and value all human lives".# The "value all human lives" thing just doesn't mesh with the concept of "collateral damage".

Multiple Choice Question Time:

I would prefer my wife/child/mom/friend killed by:

A: cruise missile
B: suicide bomber
C: daisy cutter
D: all of the above
If we're such terrible people over here why don't you move over to Iraq or the Palestinian Territory where people are so much better? In the mean time, you still haven't backed up your position with any statistical facts. All you've done made are baseless accusations and innuendoes. If you want to convince me, give me facts and info. Some of your other comments above are ridiculous and not worth responding to. [/b][/quote]
Laugh. That's your response? "Move over there if you love them so much"?

Good one.

What position haven't I backed up? That innocent lives have been lost? That western governments and militaries have been meddling and fighting and killing in the Middle East for years? What's next, I'll need statistics to back up that the sky is blue?

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0522/p01s02-woiq.html

http://www.jhsph.edu/PublicHealthNews/Pres...rnham_Iraq.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3962969.stm

It's hard to prove my other accusation -- that people care when a family member dies -- so you'll just have to trust me on that one.
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