Canada urged to lift visa rules for EU states

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Considering the amount of skilled labour in a lot of these countries (and our total need for it), it wouldn't be the worst thing to have people come to Canada. These are not 3rd world nations with uneducated populations we're dealing with, a lot of these people have skills that we are in dire need of.

And remember, immigration is not the only issue here. These kinds of policies prevent tourism money from coming into Canada...something that is becoming more of an issue with a stronger dollar.

But I guess it's just easier to fear monger...

What are you talking about?

If there are skilled workers in these countries, they can immigrate to Canada the same as any other person. Eliminating visa's would not prevent this. A lot of these people are considered undereducated and would have a difficult time qualifying as a skilled worker.

Tourist dollars? Really? When the average monthly income of Poland is around $550 before taxes. I don't think we are missing out on a lot of tourist dollars. If someone with money wants to come to Canada, they can get a visa in a few weeks.

It has nothing to do with fear mongering and all about controlling who we want in our country.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

A lot of these people are considered undereducated and would have a difficult time qualifying as a skilled worker.

Clearly you don't know jack about Eastern-Europe. The Poles are actually quite renowed for their building/construction skills. They've restorted many of Europe's great cathedrals. But i guess we really don't need any people with construction skills in Alberta these days...

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

If someone with money wants to come to Canada, they can get a visa in a few weeks.

So how exactly does this prevent someone who wants to illegally immigrate to Canada? It's a small roadbump if you really want to try to get in.

Besides, Slovenia has a no-visa agreement with Canada. Clearly we've all been bowled over by an influx of evil illegals from that country.

[BlackEleven]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Just because some country doesn't require Canadians to not have a visa doesn't mean we shouldn't make them have a visa. What kind of logic is that?

That kind of logic is called quid pro quo.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

The chance of Canadians going to Europe and then not leaving, living and working there is much less than a polish person who can come to Canada.

Why would they come all the way to Canada when they can much more easily and much more legally go next door to Germany, Austria or some other closer country? It's not like we're stamping their passports with Canadian SIN numbers on entry.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Do you not understand that?

I'll take any replies with a little less attitude please. Not everyone that disagrees with your opinion is stupid.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Clearly you don't know jack about Eastern-Europe. The Poles are actually quite renowed for their building/construction skills. They've restorted many of Europe's great cathedrals. But i guess we really don't need any people with construction skills in Alberta these days...

Oh...ok...because there are some good architects in Poland that mean the rest of the populace are all world renowned architects.

So how exactly does this prevent someone who wants to illegally immigrate to Canada? It's a small roadbump if you really want to try to get in.

Ok...lets not put visa restrictions on any country then. If someone is really motivated to get to Canada, yes, they will probably get here. There is much more work involved....obtaining altered passports, paying off handlers, getting past multiple routing destinations. This costs thousand of dollars......Cleary much much more difficult than buying a ticket and hopping on a plane.

Besides, Slovenia has a no-visa agreement with Canada. Clearly we've all been bowled over by an influx of evil illegals from that country.

What? You are comparing Slovenia to Poland? Lets see. Slovenia has a population of 2 million and Poland has 38 million. The GDP per capita is almost twice as much for Slovenia than Poland. Clearly Slovenia is much less of a risk of illegal migration than Poland.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by BlackEleven

That kind of logic is called quid pro quo.

Ya, ok then.

Why would they come all the way to Canada when they can much more easily and much more legally go next door to Germany, Austria or some other closer country? It's not like we're stamping their passports with Canadian SIN numbers on entry.

Why would so many come from Sri Lank, Mexico, Iraq, Columbia, Ethiopa, Sudan......clearly there are much easier ways to get into countries that are a lot closer. Do you know how many overstays there are in Canada? In 2004 it was around 40,000 people. Those are people that came to Canada and then decided not to leave. They are people that are working under the table and not paying into the social net...yet quite frequently get those services. We might aswell stamp SIN into there passports because that is what happens more often than we would like to think.

I'll take any replies with a little less attitude please. Not everyone that disagrees with your opinion is stupid.

Where did I call anyone stupid??? Please don't any make it appear someone has said something they haven't.

[BlackEleven]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Ya, ok then.

So we're in agreement?

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Why would so many come from Sri Lank, Mexico, Iraq, Columbia, Ethiopa, Sudan......clearly there are much easier ways to get into countries that are a lot closer.

We're not talking about these countries, we're talking about countries in the EU. These countries don't have any agreements with their neighbours that allows them to freely and easily move between borders. You're comparing apples to oranges here.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Do you know how many overstays there are in Canada? In 2004 it was around 40,000 people. Those are people that came to Canada and then decided not to leave. They are people that are working under the table and not paying into the social net...yet quite frequently get those services. We might aswell stamp SIN into there passports because that is what happens more often than we would like to think.

So if visas don't work anyway, then why are you so much in favour of keeping them?

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Where did I call anyone stupid??? Please don't any make it appear someone has said something they haven't.

The line I quoted implied it.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Oh...ok...because there are some good architects in Poland that mean the rest of the populace are all world renowned architects.

ok...ok...so just because a few people want to illegally enter this country from Poland, that mean so does the rest of the entire populace. I see how your theory works...downplay someones attributes with this tactic, but when it comes to looking at the negatives, disregard it.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Ok...lets not put visa restrictions on any country then. If someone is really motivated to get to Canada, yes, they will probably get here. There is much more work involved....obtaining altered passports, paying off handlers, getting past multiple routing destinations. This costs thousand of dollars......Cleary much much more difficult than buying a ticket and hopping on a plane.

It's not about not putting visa restrictions on countries, it's about realizing that these countries aren't the big bad boogie man of a threat. Have you been to a place like Prague? That place makes most Canadian cities look like cultural cesspools..do you think everyone there wants to move to Hamilton and Edmonton. Besides, this country was BUILT on europeans (many of them dirt poor) coming to this country and making something of themselves. People always seem to forget that...but then again I'm sure you're native american and you've been here all along.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

What? You are comparing Slovenia to Poland? Lets see. Slovenia has a population of 2 million and Poland has 38 million. The GDP per capita is almost twice as much for Slovenia than Poland. Clearly Slovenia is much less of a risk of illegal migration than Poland.

If you've ever been to Slovenia, you'd know it's not that far of lifestyle wise from most of these countries listed. The chances of a Slovenian coming over aren't that much different than the rest. If it's clearly about population, I assume you would support Latvia (2mill), Lithuania (3mill) Slovakia (5 mill) entering...and hey, if its about GDP, the Czech Republic and Hungary are more or less around Slovenia anyway.

I'm not ignorant to think that there won't be people trying to get into this country, but I think the problem is that there are many countries on this list where the chance of this happening differs. The Czech Republic and a place like Romania are quite different along the development scale.

[blankall]

I'm guessign the countries on those lists are there for a reason. I don't think Canada gains anything from having a visa system other than another massive pile of paper to deal with. Although if Canada's imimgration system is anything like any of the HR departments I've ever worked for, they may like this.

But back on topic, I'm guessing those countries have been flagged for very good reasons. Most likely past experience. I know for a fact that there is a large amount of illegal eastern european workers in Toronto. Yes some may provide valuable work, but the truth is our economy is only set up to handle so many migrants a year. Also, why should these peopel be given preference over those who follow the proper procedure and migrate legally?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by BlackEleven

We're not talking about these countries, we're talking about countries in the EU. These countries don't have any agreements with their neighbours that allows them to freely and easily move between borders. You're comparing apples to oranges here.

There isn't the job oppertunities in Europe like there is in Canada for low skilled workers, so it isn't apples to oranges. Why would theygo to Germany when there is no work for them there? Why don't all these people that come from the countries I mentioned go and stay in Europe? Well, a lot have and that is the problem. Europe has no real control on there immigration policies, they are being over run by refugees and non-skilled immigrants and Europe is widely used as a resting spot until they can come to North America. The point is Canada needs to maintain control of its own immigration policy and not be dictated to by Europe who has an terrible record of holding there own.

So if visas don't work anyway, then why are you so much in favour of keeping them?

They do work, in large part....where did I say they don't?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Table 5

ok...ok...so just because a few people want to illegally enter this country from Poland, that mean so does the rest of the entire populace. I see how your theory works...downplay someones attributes with this tactic, but when it comes to looking at the negatives, disregard it.

A lot more people would want to move to Canada from Poland compared to your comment "Clearly you don't know jack about Eastern-Europe. The Poles are actually quite renowed for their building/construction skills." implying that polish people are such great builders we should be begging for them, when both you and I know very few polish people would qualify to this title.

It's not about not putting visa restrictions on countries, it's about realizing that these countries aren't the big bad boogie man of a threat. Have you been to a place like Prague? That place makes most Canadian cities look like cultural cesspools..do you think everyone there wants to move to Hamilton and Edmonton.

No person said they were big bad apples and this is not about culture. If it was no one would want to leave Europe and the middle east. People could give two ***ts about culture if they cannot provide food and shelter to their family or having meaningful and gainful employment. People don't say "gee dear, I have a dead end job that barely puts food on the table and we have no access to healthcare but I don't want to move and better ourselves because we have some rich history in our country.

Besides, this country was BUILT on europeans (many of them dirt poor) coming to this country and making something of themselves. People always seem to forget that...but then again I'm sure you're native american and you've been here all along.

Don't compare the 19th and early 20th century to Canada now adays. This isn't about that. We are talking about maintaining the Canadian social net. Were talking about controlling our destiny. This is about making sure the social net that you, your parents and grandparents paid into os there for you when you need it. The system is in place to maintain that. If someone wants to immigrate to Canada and contribute to society and their livelyhood...they can.....but they still need a visa no matter what country they are from. When you remove the barriers from economically depressed locations it allows a huge influx of people to enter Canada and seek employment. That causes two problems. 1 since they didn't do it the legal way, then they probably are not skilled workers and 2 if they don't have a work permit they are not contributing to the social net, which you and I pay for. Our great great grandparents came over without ANY guarantees. No healthcare, no unemployment insurance, no wealthfare nothing. So I will tell you what, if these people want to come try out there hand without tapping in to our social net, then fine by me. But it doesn't work that way does it. As soon as they are here we give them everything.

If you've ever been to Slovenia, you'd know it's not that far of lifestyle wise from most of these countries listed. The chances of a Slovenian coming over aren't that much different than the rest. If it's clearly about population, I assume you would support Latvia (2mill), Lithuania (3mill) Slovakia (5 mill) entering...and hey, if its about GDP, the Czech Republic and Hungary are more or less around Slovenia anyway.

Population does count, the more people you have in an economically depressed country the chances of more people coming are greater. Pure math.

I'm not ignorant to think that there won't be people trying to get into this country, but I think the problem is that there are many countries on this list where the chance of this happening differs. The Czech Republic and a place like Romania are quite different along the development scale.

Your right every country is different and the countries currently on the visa list are there for a reason...because there has been a past history of visitor abuse. As far as I am concered I think we should require visa's from everyone that enters Canada other than from commonwealth nations and the usa. Hell, Australia requires visa's from almost everyone.

[BlackEleven]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

There isn't the job oppertunities in Europe like there is in Canada for low skilled workers, so it isn't apples to oranges. Why would theygo to Germany when there is no work for them there?

What are you basing this on? Germany has a very comparable unemployment rate to Canada and several European nations have a lower rate than Canada. I'm interested in why you think Canada is such a desirable place for Europeans to try and illegally imigrate to when they have a multitude of countries that have econmies just as strong as Canada's that are closer, easier and in some cases, legal, to imgrate to and work in. Moreover, many of them have a lot more social benefits available than Canada, which you seem to think illegal immigrants are so anxious to tap into. And, more specifically, how is allowing entry to these countries without a visa is going to dramatically change the way things are now?

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Why don't all these people that come from the countries I mentioned go and stay in Europe? Well, a lot have and that is the problem. Europe has no real control on there immigration policies, they are being over run by refugees and non-skilled immigrants and Europe is widely used as a resting spot until they can come to North America.

Overrun by refugees? You say that like they're rats or insects or something. I don't understand your comtempt for refugees and immigrants.

And your resting spot arguement seems totally assinine to me. Why would refugees spend all their money and go through all the trouble of claiming refugee status and resettling in Europe, only to rest there and short time and then do it all over again to come to North America? I'm sorry, but that just seems ridiculous. I'd really like to see some corroborating evidence to support that claim.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

The point is Canada needs to maintain control of its own immigration policy and not be dictated to by Europe who has an terrible record of holding there own.

Europe is not dictating anything about Canadian immigration policy. They just want the right to enter the country without a visa, not the right to immigrate here. If they chose to stay and live here, that's just as illegal as it would be with a visa.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

They do work, in large part....where did I say they don't?

The whole bit about we might as well just stamp their passports with a SIN.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by BlackEleven

What are you basing this on? Germany has a very comparable unemployment rate to Canada and several European nations have a lower rate than Canada. I'm interested in why you think Canada is such a desirable place for Europeans to try and illegally imigrate to when they have a multitude of countries that have econmies just as strong as Canada's that are closer, easier and in some cases, legal, to imgrate to and work in. Moreover, many of them have a lot more social benefits available than Canada, which you seem to think illegal immigrants are so anxious to tap into. And, more specifically, how is allowing entry to these countries without a visa is going to dramatically change the way things are now?

Germanys economy is different to Canada's not to mention many European countries have a netural or in some cases negative growth rate. Therefor the kinds of jobs that are available here in canada for low skilled workers is not as available in a lot of european countries.

And it is not all Europeans, it is Europeans from economically depressed regions. That is what I have said all along. And yes, many European countries have more social programs....all the more reason why they are having a harder and harder time keeping those programs afloat. Englands social net is getting to the verge of collapse because of this. It is basic math.....you need so many people to pay into the system inorder to get it out of the system. If you don't believe me go ask any new Immigrant from the UK and ask why they left.

As far as how it would change....right now people have to apply and be screened before they are given a visa. They have to satisfy an officer that they have the financial support to visit Canada, they have to prove that there is a reason for them to return to their home by proving they have gainful employment, family or property in their home country. By removing that system, anyone can get on a plane and make there way to Canada. Once here, they are afforded almost all the rights of a Canadian.

Overrun by refugees? You say that like they're rats or insects or something. I don't understand your comtempt for refugees and immigrants.

I have always said that immigration is the key to Canada's sucess. Proper immigration. Never during this thread have I posted distain for immigrants but thanks for trying to smear me as some kind of anti immigration person. As for refugees....most refugees that make it to Canada are not real refugees. I am all for the conventional refugee program where Canada sponsors refugees in need. Ones that really need it....the ones in the refugee camps or the ones that seek protection from a consulate. Not the ones that use fradulant documents, not the ones that can pay people thousands of dollars to have them smuggled in.....not the ones that claim refugee status against their country and then as soon as they get their status in Canada they bugger off back to their home country....the very country that they were so afraid of dieing that they needed our protection. There is a big difference between the two.

And your resting spot arguement seems totally assinine to me. Why would refugees spend all their money and go through all the trouble of claiming refugee status and resettling in Europe, only to rest there and short time and then do it all over again to come to North America? I'm sorry, but that just seems ridiculous. I'd really like to see some corroborating evidence to support that claim.

Well that is one of the problems. It is much easier and cheaper to get into Europe and once they are there....well they can go anywhere in Europe. There is really not that much control. Spain and France are experiencing huge problems with this. And I am not saying that most refugees to Europe do this.....because most stay there....but there are a large number that don't and end up coming to North America.

Europe is not dictating anything about Canadian immigration policy. They just want the right to enter the country without a visa, not the right to immigrate here. If they chose to stay and live here, that's just as illegal as it would be with a visa.

Yes they are, and they even went as far as threatening Canada with visa restrictions if they do not comply. (heard that on the radio). Anything with controling the movement of people into Canada is considered part of immigration....that doesn't mean they have to move here permanently.

[I_am_Beast]

screw that, with the EU open door imigration, ie they don't care how you got there....but once you are ( in some countries) you automaticly get citizen statis...

Agreed that we are already looked as the back door into the US, but with unchecked people from the EU coming here thats just like poking a hole in a condom, and at the very least you'll end up with ....

[joe_mullen]

The Poles are actually quite renowed for their building/construction skills." implying that polish people are such great builders we should be begging for them, when both you and I know very few polish people would qualify to this title.

I'm not quite sure what you're implying by this comment, but you must surely know that the poles are the the largest suppliers of skilled labourers in western europe (specifically the UK, Ireland and France), don't have the stats on me, but it is a well known fact in EU circles. Not sure what polish people you know that don't qualify for this title, but that is quite a generalization to make... are you implying that poland is a country made up of only unskilled labourers? or maybe you're alluding to the large influx of polish trained doctors into scandinavia, germany and great britain, countries with high medical standards that have no problems accepting these physicians, no questions asked...to the point where the polish medical system is in crisis due to the number of doctors leaving to practice medicine in western europe.

[Dan02]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/25/dni...eat/index.html

interesting this article comes out right after that to. Long and short of it for those without the time to read, US is worried that the terrorists are trying to recruit in Europe because most of them dont' require visas to enter the country.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Meh, who cares about Canadian visa, I wish Australia would loosen up their visa/immigration rules.

BTW Jolinar, you are so far off I dont know where to start. Two points though:

- you seem worried that illegal immigrants from places like Africa will get to Canada via EU if Canada drops visa requirements. Well, if you are an illegal in the EU, you dont have a passport of EU country and thus you are not eligible to enter Canada without visa...no?

- you seem worried that EU citizens (Easter Europe) will flood Canada by millions, well let me tell you one thing - I am from Eastern Europe (although I prefer to call it Central Europe, but I digress) and I have known 1 (ONE) person that ever talked about wanting to move to Canada (and eventually he did, he lives in Calgary).

It is a widespread myth that there is this mass of people behind the fence in Easter Europe (EU countries) that want nothing more than migrating to Canada. Its quite funny actually, the "age window" for such a move is very narrow - limited to graduates without wife/family. Once you get married, you are not going to move anywhere (99 percent of people). If you told your wife you want to move to Germany/France (countries comparable to Canada) what would she tell you? She would tell you the same thing a Czech/Slovak/Hungarian wife would tell her husband if he wanted to move to Canada.

If you are worried, you should be worried about illegals from Africa/Asia/war torn places, but its laughable if you think EU citizens will flood your precious country.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Hell, Australia requires visa's from almost everyone.

Only New Zealanders dont need Australian visa, everyone else does.

[jolinar of malkshor]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

- you seem worried that illegal immigrants from places like Africa will get to Canada via EU if Canada drops visa requirements. Well, if you are an illegal in the EU, you dont have a passport of EU country and thus you are not eligible to enter Canada without visa...no?

No, I never said that at all.

- you seem worried that EU citizens (Easter Europe) will flood Canada by millions, well let me tell you one thing - I am from Eastern Europe (although I prefer to call it Central Europe, but I digress) and I have known 1 (ONE) person that ever talked about wanting to move to Canada (and eventually he did, he lives in Calgary).

Where did I say by the millions? Never did. Just because you only know one person doesn't mean there are many others that want to come. I don't know a single person from the USA who wants to move to Canada but thousands do every year. And I have quite a few family members that live in the USA.

And besides, you moved here didn't you so that is two people you know. And there is nothing wrong with that at all. I am assuming you entered Canada through the proper procedures and are a contributing member of society. That is what Canada needs.....we need more people like you.

It is a widespread myth that there is this mass of people behind the fence in Easter Europe (EU countries) that want nothing more than migrating to Canada. Its quite funny actually, the "age window" for such a move is very narrow - limited to graduates without wife/family. Once you get married, you are not going to move anywhere (99 percent of people). If you told your wife you want to move to Germany/France (countries comparable to Canada) what would she tell you? She would tell you the same thing a Czech/Slovak/Hungarian wife would tell her husband if he wanted to move to Canada.

Really...I don't think so. Last year that were about 70,000 family class sponsorships and about 130,000 skilled worker immigrants. Most of those skilled workers bring there families to Canada with them and if they don't at the time they then sponsor their family at a later date.

If you are worried, you should be worried about illegals from Africa/Asia/war torn places, but its laughable if you think EU citizens will flood your precious country.

I am worried about them but almost all African and Asian countries require visas. I wasn't worried about Eastern Europe until there was talk about lifting the visa requirement.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

No, I never said that at all.

OK, but I thought you tried to say that illegals use Europe as a resting point before they go to Canada:

"Europe has no real control on there immigration policies, they are being over run by refugees and non-skilled immigrants and Europe is widely used as a resting spot until they can come to North America."

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Where did I say by the millions? Never did. Just because you only know one person doesn't mean there are many others that want to come. I don't know a single person from the USA who wants to move to Canada but thousands do every year. And I have quite a few family members that live in the USA.

And besides, you moved here didn't you so that is two people you know. And there is nothing wrong with that at all. I am assuming you entered Canada through the proper procedures and are a contributing member of society. That is what Canada needs.....we need more people like you.

Well, I have never been to Canada so its only one person
What I am trying to say, Canada is not primarily on radar when people from here want to move out. I am not saying its not happening, of course it is but I would bet that the number of Eastern Europeans that would illegaly overstay in Canada would be neligible compared to other nationals.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Really...I don't think so. Last year that were about 70,000 family class sponsorships and about 130,000 skilled worker immigrants. Most of those skilled workers bring there families to Canada with them and if they don't at the time they then sponsor their family at a later date.

How many of them were EU citizens? Of course if you are from a war torn country you will do anything to just move away. Trust me, the situation in Eastern EU countries is not that bad people would want to move out desperately.

As table5 said, try visit places like Prague, you will be amazed.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

I am worried about them but almost all African and Asian countries require visas. I wasn't worried about Eastern Europe until there was talk about lifting the visa requirement.

The UK was worried before they lifted the visa requirements (I dont need a passport there, simple ID is enough and I can work there without any restrictions if I wanted to) and what happened? Nothing special, immigration grew (mainly Poles) but nowhere near fearmongerers thought it will. Other countries soon followed UK lead, and now only Germany and Austria have strict restrictions for people from Eastern EU countries to live/work there.

[BlackEleven]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Germanys economy is different to Canada's not to mention many European countries have a netural or in some cases negative growth rate. Therefor the kinds of jobs that are available here in canada for low skilled workers is not as available in a lot of european countries.

Of course Germany's economy is different that Canada, but that does nothing to prove there are less jobs available there. I would still like to see you prove this claim. And, yes, there are some European countries that don't have the jobs available that Canada does, but there are many that do. In order for your arguement to hold water, Canada would have to have more unskilled jobs available that every single European country, which just simply isn't true. The fact still remains that there are closer, easier and more viable options for the Eastern European immigrant. You've still done nothing to disprove this in my eyes. I really see nothing attracting unskilled Eastern European labour to Canada. It's far away, expensive to get to, and there's a risk of getting caught trying to work illegally in the country.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

And it is not all Europeans, it is Europeans from economically depressed regions. That is what I have said all along. And yes, many European countries have more social programs....all the more reason why they are having a harder and harder time keeping those programs afloat. Englands social net is getting to the verge of collapse because of this. It is basic math.....you need so many people to pay into the system inorder to get it out of the system. If you don't believe me go ask any new Immigrant from the UK and ask why they left.

We're not debating the social programs of European countries here, we're talking about the programs being more appealing to immigrants who (in your arguement anyway) are like parasites seting their sights on social systems to milk for all they're worth. If this we're the case as you claim, why wouldn't they all just bee-line for Sweden and Denmark? If they're in the EU already, they can freely cross those borders without even a passport check.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

As far as how it would change....right now people have to apply and be screened before they are given a visa. They have to satisfy an officer that they have the financial support to visit Canada, they have to prove that there is a reason for them to return to their home by proving they have gainful employment, family or property in their home country. By removing that system, anyone can get on a plane and make there way to Canada. Once here, they are afforded almost all the rights of a Canadian.

Thanks for finally addressing my question directly. I agree it would be slightly easier for them to get into Canada, but as I've argued before there are many more viable options for them if there intent is to illegally immigrate. Further, you are wrong when you say they have the same rights as a Canadian. There's no way for them to work (legally) and collect social benefits unless they are a Canadian citizen.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

I have always said that immigration is the key to Canada's sucess. Proper immigration. Never during this thread have I posted distain for immigrants but thanks for trying to smear me as some kind of anti immigration person. As for refugees....most refugees that make it to Canada are not real refugees. I am all for the conventional refugee program where Canada sponsors refugees in need. Ones that really need it....the ones in the refugee camps or the ones that seek protection from a consulate. Not the ones that use fradulant documents, not the ones that can pay people thousands of dollars to have them smuggled in.....not the ones that claim refugee status against their country and then as soon as they get their status in Canada they bugger off back to their home country....the very country that they were so afraid of dieing that they needed our protection. There is a big difference between the two.

I can certainly admit our immigration policies are not perfect (and I don't think any country's are), but I don't really see how this relates to the topic of dropping entry visa requirements for Eastern Europeans EU countries. No one from the countries in questions can claim refugeee status, so its totally unrelated. To be honest, to me it just sounds like more disdain for immigrants and refugees. I suggest we stick to the original topic.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Well that is one of the problems. It is much easier and cheaper to get into Europe and once they are there....well they can go anywhere in Europe. There is really not that much control. Spain and France are experiencing huge problems with this. And I am not saying that most refugees to Europe do this.....because most stay there....but there are a large number that don't and end up coming to North America.

Like I said before, this seems crazy to me. Its difficult and expensive to immigrate once, why would anyone want to do it twice? Especially people you're classifiying as 'unskilled labour', who likely don't have much money to begin with. I'd really, really like to see some proof of your claim.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Yes they are, and they even went as far as threatening Canada with visa restrictions if they do not comply. (heard that on the radio). Anything with controling the movement of people into Canada is considered part of immigration....that doesn't mean they have to move here permanently.

Wrong. I think you're confused as to the meaning of immigration. Immigration is a resettlement in another country, not just movement of people into another country temporarily. By your definition, if I take a vacation in France, I'm immigrating there. This is wrong. These countries just want to be able to enter Canada without a visa, not permanently move here. There's a big difference.