Religious-school funding to be a 'defining issue'

[Claeren]

The problem is that Catholic based schools were founded first in Canada and at the time of confederation they were the ONLY option for much of the country.

(Do we even want to get into the 'Quebec-exemption' side of this debate? Catholic schools exist because they were needed to join the nation which trumps any other concerns ~140 years later.)

Public schools, especially widespread public schools, are a much newer invention.

Catholic schools indepenedent existance today is predicated on their initiative 200 years ago. That is hard to take away because a recent wave of immigration has created a need for a more diverse offering of religious schools for their parents to brainwash their children with. The Catholic system is no better but again, has 200 years of precedent and was the first game in town... by allowing Catholic schools it brought the country together, by allowing a large number of other faith based schools you are potentially tearing the country apart... or not?! THAT though is another question beyond the simpler question of whether the Catholic school system deserves their excemption/independence....



Claeren.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

I appologize for the out to lunch comment, I suppose I meant more along the lines of out of date, or misinformed.
Who knows, maybe that is the law, I'm fairly certian it isn't, but I'm at least I'm sure that it isn't in any way enforced, as my own personal experience would attest.

No problem. We're coming at this from different angles and have had different experiences, so we're bound to see things differently.

[Kerplunk]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

I am basing my statment on what I have been told by tax officials on the three occasions that I have purchased property, as I have stated above. If I am out to lunch it is because that is the information tax officials have given me. If the situation is now otherwise, it's possible that the rules have changed in the seven years since I last purchased property, as I've also mentioned above. I don't see why you need to accuse me of being out to lunch because of what I've been told by provincial tax officials and the personal experiences I've had with this matter ... sheesh.

This is my experience as well, when I bought earlier this year. After buying my property I was sent a form telling me to declare which school system my tax money will go to, public or private. It said on the form that if I was Catholic then I must select to send my taxes to the private system, otherwise I was able to choose whichever.

[bigtmac19]

Having kids in Ontario schools, I don't believe they should fund Catholic education, but no other religious education. Either pay for all or none.
And with the cuts to the education system we have seen in Ontario schools over the past 20 years, they obviously don't have money to fund all religious education, so therefore don't do it, fund public education only and make it the best quality.

[ken0042]

Ford- FWIW when I bought my house I got the same form, and I believe it said I had to fill out Catholic if I was Catholic. Me having no kids (that I know of) I didn't fill it out right away; I kept meaning to ask my friends who have kids what schools they go to, and send my money that way. I never did, they send me 2 more reminders, then by the time tax notices were sent out, mine had a line on the bottom that read something like "because you were too lazy to check a single box, we've decided to send your school money to the Public system."

Maybe you could do that next time you move.

[Robbob]

Part of a census a few years ago one of the questions was whether I supported the catholic or public with my taxes. I was a first year home owner and at the time I think it was defaulted to public. Anyways long story short the census taker told me that if I was catholic I had to support the catholic system. I lied to her and said I wasn't catholic because I wanted my money to go to the public system which I came out of.

It is going to get really messy if different systems want a piece of the pie. The goverenment needs to get out and support one system but give parents an option. Lots of red tape and lost money from administration but the only fair way to deal with this issue.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Ford- FWIW when I bought my house I got the same form, and I believe it said I had to fill out Catholic if I was Catholic. Me having no kids (that I know of) I didn't fill it out right away; I kept meaning to ask my friends who have kids what schools they go to, and send my money that way. I never did, they send me 2 more reminders, then by the time tax notices were sent out, mine had a line on the bottom that read something like "because you were too lazy to check a single box, we've decided to send your school money to the Public system."

Maybe you could do that next time you move.

That's good to know. I'll probably still make an issue out of it just on principle though. It's a pet peeve of mine. I'm glad to hear a few others have encountered this as well so it doesn't seem like I'm making the whole thing up.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by bigtmac19

And with the cuts to the education system we have seen in Ontario schools over the past 20 years, they obviously don't have money to fund all religious education, so therefore don't do it, fund public education only and make it the best quality.

And what kind of quality do you think a monopolistic school board will provide?

I think having a choice of school boards, and non-catholics can certainly attend separate school boards, is in the best interests of everyone. Either the public school board does a good job or they'll lose students, and tax money, to the separate school board if it is doing a good job, and vice versa.

I'd be fine if they decided to eliminate the catholic part of the separate school board experience but competition is vital amongst school boards and must be preserved.

[bigtmac19]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

And what kind of quality do you think a monopolistic school board will provide?

I think having a choice of school boards, and non-catholics can certainly attend separate school boards, is in the best interests of everyone. Either the public school board does a good job or they'll lose students, and tax money, to the separate school board if it is doing a good job, and vice versa.

I'd be find if they decided to eliminate the catholic part of the separate school board experience but competition is vital amongst school boards and must be preserved.

I'm sorry I don't quite understand your point. Do you think it's fair the government funds catholic schools, but no other religion? We currently have four school boards in our area, English Catholic, French Catholic, English Public, French Public. It's such a waste of money, i.e. trustees salaries and administration costs for all those boards. If we only funded public education and reduced to one school board, then ideally all those administration savings could be put back into the schools. I don't see it as being a monopoly in the way I think you mean it? Non-catholics are not allowed to attend catholic schools in our board, but catholics can attend public schools. It is discriminatory.

[psicodude]

Let me start off by saying that I actually work for the catholic board, and work just a couple of floors below the superintendents. So I am getting these answers from the people that get the money from the government and sign the cheques.

The little box you fill in has absolutely zero effect on where your tax dollars go. It is simply there as a census data type of thing so the government can tell if there is enough demand for them to keep funding a seperate system. School boards in Alberta are paid a certain dollar amount per student. It is the exact same amount for public and seperate boards. How would it be even close to fair otherwise? A public board student gets $500 while a seperate student gets $400? No way.

Back on topic....I say it's either all or nothing. Either fund boards for all religions that meet certain criteria (say, a minimum amount of students) or just go 100% public.

[Claeren]

Originally Posted by bigtmac19

Non-catholics are not allowed to attend catholic schools in our board, but catholics can attend public schools. It is discriminatory.

The way i understand it, up until the early 1990's anyone could go to either school. The problem was that in much of the country the seperate school board was seen as being the better run of the two and many parents started flooding seperate schools with their otherwise public school kids.

Essentially, they created rules to prevent non-Catholics to HELP the public school remain competitive and to help prevent those notions of one being better than the other from spreading.


Why would Catholics care if non-Catholic childern came to their schools to learn about Catholicism? That would help the faith, not hurt it...



Claeren.

[skins]

Originally Posted by bigtmac19

Non-catholics are not allowed to attend catholic schools in our board, but catholics can attend public schools. It is discriminatory.

I grew up in Estevan, Saskatchewan and there was only one french immersion school; it was catholic. I wasn't catholic, but I still went. They had no problem with it and I wasn't forced to participate in any religious events either.

[psicodude]

Originally Posted by skins

I grew up in Estevan, Saskatchewan and there was only one french immersion school; it was catholic. I wasn't catholic, but I still went. They had no problem with it and I wasn't forced to participate in any religious events either.

It is very difficult for a non Catholic to get into a Catholic school in Calgary. Not impossible, but almost. All students are required to take 1 religious Ed. class per year. In order to take part in the grade 12 graduation ceremony, you have to pass Religion 30. You can still get your Alberta diploma without it though. Students are required to say prayers at the beginning of every day, and at the start of any formal gathering (meetings, assembly, etc.) There are crosses and pictures of the pope everywhere. Bottom line, it's pretty in your face.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by psicodude

It is very difficult for a non Catholic to get into a Catholic school in Calgary. Not impossible, but almost. All students are required to take 1 religious Ed. class per year. In order to take part in the grade 12 graduation ceremony, you have to pass Religion 30. You can still get your Alberta diploma without it though. Students are required to say prayers at the beginning of every day, and at the start of any formal gathering (meetings, assembly, etc.) There are crosses and pictures of the pope everywhere. Bottom line, it's pretty in your face.

i was educated in the catholic school system in calgary and today i still don't practice any religion and nor do the people i still keep in touch with from high school (and there is about 50). I don't remeber being required to say prayer every day, maybe in elementary but not in high school. Religious education course was cool, not only was it a nice break from other classes, where we could lounge and grab a few zzz's, thanks to only ever watching movies and documentaries, but in religion 25 we were taught about other non-christian religions which was pretty interesting...as far as crosses and pictures of the pope everywhere, meh maybe at the school office, other than that i sure dont remeber my school being littered with them....also going to mass was always a good way to spend a mornining, with the whole school being in the church, you just slipped out the back door and headed to lindsay park or had a nice nap if you sat in the upper level...all in all it was not much different than going to a public school, oh except back then it was a lot safer...

as far as funding for the catholic school system, there is a huge demand for it and its been around for over a 100 years....

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Claeren

The way i understand it, up until the early 1990's anyone could go to either school. The problem was that in much of the country the seperate school board was seen as being the better run of the two and many parents started flooding seperate schools with their otherwise public school kids.

Essentially, they created rules to prevent non-Catholics to HELP the public school remain competitive and to help prevent those notions of one being better than the other from spreading.


Why would Catholics care if non-Catholic childern came to their schools to learn about Catholicism? That would help the faith, not hurt it...



Claeren.

this totally correct, there were plenty of non-catholics when i was attending school in the seperate system, especially in the early to mid 90's it was a much better option. The public school board was in massive debt and had their entire board fired for the constant bickering and unprofessionalism than ran through the ranks.

[LIP MAN]

Where is the box to check off "Flying Spaghetti Monster"?

[Joy]

Most of you are writing from Alberta so I will tell you a bit about school funding in Ontario: Over 650,000 students attend fully funded Catholic schools, about one third of the total students in this province. 53,000 students attend non-funded faith-based schools, some with school boards covering several schools and thousands of Jewish students. Catholic funding was guaranteed in our 1867 Constitution until the end of grade 9; in the 1980's the Ontario government voluntarily extended Catholic funding till the end of high school which is why high schools have open enrolement while Catholic elementary schools can demand baptism certificates.

Many, not all, non-funded faith-based schools are interested in joining pre-existing school boards as is done in Alberta which has a Jewish schools under both public and Catholic boards. Most of the faith-based schools already voluntarily follow the Ontario general curriculum. John Tory, leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservative Party, has promised to invite all non-funded faith-based schools to join the Catholics in our publicly funded school system so long as the curriculum is followed, teachers are qualified, and the schools participate in standardized testing. Premier McGuinty of the Liberals insists on continued funding for the Catholics, while all other faiths receive zero! (McGuinty's dad chaired a Catholic board, he and his siblings and their kids attended free Catholic school, and his wife continues to teach at a Catholic school) The NDP also support the status quo on the assumption that while all faiths pay education taxes, they need to pay tuition while subsidizing the rest of the province's kids' education. The Green Party is at least advocating fairness - in the form of abolishing Catholic funding and having "One school system for all", but have not explained if they will also cancel funding for arts-based schools, native schools, french schools, etc! After all, either we support school choice or not!

Unfortunately, this debate veers into whether or not parents should even be ALLOWED to send their kids to faith-based schools. McGuinty has been the worst of the fear-mongerers with his claims that faith-based students are segregated and hinting we will have social unrest if we fund these students. Obviously he thinks only Catholics can be trusted to run faith-based schools.

There have been Jewish faith-based schools in this country for almost 100 years. For the most part, the students study an accelerated general curriculum in half the day and spend the other half on Jewish and Hebrew studies. These kids usually graduate speaking Hebrew fairly fluently, not something you can learn in Sunday school which focuses on just reading, writing Hebrew and Holidays. My nineteen year old went to Israel for the first time this summer after two years of University and I am proud to say he was able to converse fairly well in Hebrew.

I am very interested in five Ukrainian schools here in Ontario. They are funded under 3 different Catholic boards. While not Roman Catholic, they recognize the Roman Catholic Vatican and Pope as their religious authority and managed to get full funding. The Ukrainian Language and Heritage studies are funded by the parents, Churches and government heritage grants. The type of Catholicism taught is Eastern Rite (also called Byzantine) which celebrates Xmas on Jan 6 and Easter a week late. They pray in an old slavic language. I applaud this initiative and would like to see this funding model offered to other religions as well!

If you read this far, I thank you!

[bigtmac19]

Thanks Joy, great post, very interesting.

[Bleeding Red]

Great post Joy.

Are you ready for my take?

I was educated at a school in both the Calgary Public board AND the Catholic Board and is now private. Any guesses as to which one?

I went to high school in the Ontario Public system. I send my kids to a faith-based school in Ontario.

I am pretty sure they will learn the same core Canadian values I learned in my youth and hold today - hard work, honesty, tolerance, inclusiveness, etc.

I understand that Alberta has a few different options for shooling - including charter schools (still learning about those). It does not seem that AB is a one school system for all province and kudos for that.

In ON, as you can tell from Joy's post, we are getting down to the nitty-gritty - one public system, public & Catholic only, fund'em all if they abide by the rules.

The Toronto District School Board funds many different kinds of schools - adults only, performing arts, special needs, homosexual exclusive - yet McGuinty does not find this to be divisive, segragationist, or detrimental to society. Graduates of faith-based schools are solid, productive citzens, often leaders in their fields with a solid sense of community and hard work and espouse the values that are held high in Canada.

As for the cost, McGuinty says on Monday that there is no money for faith based schools (the cost is between $400-$500 mil) and then on Tuesday annunces that his government will have a $2.3 billion surplus! (mostly on the backs of taxpayers forking over for the healthcare preimium, which I think you also pay in AB.)

It is a question of fairness and equality - reverting to one system is political suicide, equal funding is a political bump.

In ON I urge you to vote TORY!

[JohnnyB]

I'm all for the funding of faith based schools as long as the funding is equal per-student to what the public board receives, as long as the core curriculum is covered in faith based schools as well, and as long as any faith based school teaching to an equivalent standard is eligible. I see little reason that there shouldn't be the option of learning more about a particular faith when the basics are in the bag as well. If kids out of faith based systems score equivalently or better on standardized tests, then more power to 'em.

Having a homogenous system of education just seems like a disaster to me. So much is made of making sure that everyone is taught to just the same standard, but the fact is that students are all different, and the same standard just isn't best for all students. What ultimately ends up happening in a homogenous system is that it becomes geared to the lowest common denominator among the masses of diversity; those with needs not the same as the lowest common denominator either get left behind or become stultifyingly bored. The public system is infinitely enriched by efforts to diversify it's programs to accomodate a variety of special needs, aptitudes, and inclinations in it's students. Those students benefit wonderfully from a more aware and adaptable educative program.

The thing is, the public system can only be diversified so much. If there are students whose needs are better served by the program offered in a faith based school (specifically related to it's nature as a faith based school), then that school should be whole heartedly encouraged to continue improving those students' experiences in a faith based environment. If the benefits of the program aren't specifically related to it's nature as a faith based school, then there must be something there for the public system to pick up on and aim at developing for public school kids. That diversity encourages more dynamic approaches to education, and enriches the pool of programs and approaches available for all boards to consider and implement.

I say this as an agnostic, raised as an atheist, who studied in the public system.