Wisconson brings creationism back to classroom

[Mike F]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction@Nov 7 2004, 01:14 PM
That's a good point, but I think the point from Christian's perspective is that faith is the key to redemption in God's eyes. You prove your love for God by displaying faith. If the message has to be spoonfed to the people, then there is no need for faith. If there is no faith, then how does one prove their devotion? People would be following God because they felt they had to rather than wanting to.

Making it too easy for the people removes the purpose.

If God is all loving, was set up a system where the majority of your children end up in Hell for eternity?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Mike F+Nov 8 2004, 12:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike F @ Nov 8 2004, 12:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-FlamesAddiction@Nov 7 2004, 01:14 PM
That's a good point, but I think the point from Christian's perspective is that faith is the key to redemption in God's eyes. You prove your love for God by displaying faith. If the message has to be spoonfed to the people, then there is no need for faith. If there is no faith, then how does one prove their devotion? People would be following God because they felt they had to rather than wanting to.

Making it too easy for the people removes the purpose.

If God is all loving, was set up a system where the majority of your children end up in Hell for eternity? [/b][/quote]
I don't think so. Then again, I don't think the majority of children have done anything bad enough to end up in Hell for eternity (if there is a Hell that is).

Some people might interpret it that way, but not most people I know.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Mike F@Nov 7 2004, 06:47 PM

As for this being in line with "Gods plan", well, the same process of evolution that created humans and fluffy bunnies created the viruses and bacteria that have brought about untold suffering. If you want to propose a religion in which there is a sentient being who kicked things of and then just sat back and passively watched it progress, no matter how good or bad things got (e.g. the Holocaust), then I might be able to get on board with that. However, a religion where there is a sentient being who is all-powerful and all loving just doesn't work with the reality of our world and our history.

I'm sure you know this, but... I took (well, dropped) an introductory philosophy course in university and this theory was discussed. Something about a "watch winder" or something like that. I can't remember exactly what it was called, but some people believe what you describe -- God started it and then sat back and watched and is still watching today.

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+Nov 8 2004, 12:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ Nov 8 2004, 12:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

If God is all loving, was set up a system where the majority of your children end up in Hell for eternity?

I don't think so. Then again, I don't think the majority of children have done anything bad enough to end up in Hell for eternity (if there is a Hell that is).

Some people might interpret it that way, but not most people I know. [/b][/quote]
Actually the Bible says we are all born into Sin and just about everything we do is a sin (including thoughts).

Since we are naturally sinful creatures, the only way to get into heaven is to ask god for forgiveness for the sins we will commit.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by CaramonLS+Nov 8 2004, 01:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CaramonLS @ Nov 8 2004, 01:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

I don't think so. Then again, I don't think the majority of children have done anything bad enough to end up in Hell for eternity (if there is a Hell that is).

Some people might interpret it that way, but not most people I know.

Actually the Bible says we are all born into Sin and just about everything we do is a sin (including thoughts).

Since we are naturally sinful creatures, the only way to get into heaven is to ask god for forgiveness for the sins we will commit. [/b][/quote]
But not all religions that believe in God and/or creationism take the Bible literally.

[Clarkey]

I was wondering how long it would take for an evolution/creation debate to spark up on here.

Creationism and evolution are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Why could God not be guiding the whole process?

[Cain]

Originally posted by Clarkey@Nov 8 2004, 01:48 AM
I was wondering how long it would take for an evolution/creation debate to spark up on here.

Creationism and evolution are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Why could God not be guiding the whole process?

He sure could be...but as said above, nice kind of god to guide evolution into creating a whole bunch of nasty viruses/diseases for us to sample.

Not sure if thats the kind of god I'd like to put my faith in and worship if that were the case.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Cain+Nov 8 2004, 01:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 8 2004, 01:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Clarkey@Nov 8 2004, 01:48 AM
I was wondering how long it would take for an evolution/creation debate to spark up on here.

Creationism and evolution are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Why could God not be guiding the whole process?

He sure could be...but as said above, nice kind of god to guide evolution into creating a whole bunch of nasty viruses/diseases for us to sample.

Not sure if thats the kind of god I'd like to put my faith in and worship if that were the case. [/b][/quote]
You have to look at the bigger picture though. Something that is seen as "nasty" when looked at in a freeze-frame of history may be just a stepping stone to something better, or is necessary to acheive a certain end result.

[Wookie]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+Nov 7 2004, 08:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ Nov 7 2004, 08:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

He sure could be...but as said above, nice kind of god to guide evolution into creating a whole bunch of nasty viruses/diseases for us to sample.

Not sure if thats the kind of god I'd like to put my faith in and worship if that were the case.

You have to look at the bigger picture though. Something that is seen as "nasty" when looked at in a freeze-frame of history may be just a stepping stone to something better, or is necessary to acheive a certain end result. [/b][/quote]
Well as easy as that point is to understand think about it next time you're dying of a disease or discuss it with someone sitting in the hospital dying maybe that little "frame" will suddenly seem a wee bit more important

sorry... could'nt help it.

Anyway.. What I really came her to say was

What if God was one of us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home



kinda makes ya think..

[RougeUnderoos]

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Nov 7 2004, 07:42 PM

We'll see Dis. Are you aware that the majority of the school books in this country come from Texas and the content of these books is developed there? I didn't. I learned this only a few days ago when I also learned that Texas was changing their books to reflect creationism and christian family values. This information will now become part of the standard curriculum. All of this done quietly and efficiently. And I might add, having developed curriculum for a government institution, that there is a long process that you have to go through to get this done, so it has been happening behind the scenes for a while now. That was shocking to me and was part of my reasoning for the predictions in the other thread. So is it surprising that Wisconsin will make this change? Nope. Not after hearing that the books have already been printed and are there for delivery, all because of the change initiated in Texas.

What exactly are you trying to say? Because most schoolbooks are printed in Texas they are going to be inundated with creationism?

Seems pretty flimsy to me. Maybe you should try and point out a clear connection because I just don't understand what you're suggesting. What Texas decision are you referring to?

[Cowperson]

A story for the conversation - "Georgia Evolution Debate Going to Courts"

ATLANTA - School officials in suburban Cobb County go to court Monday to defend themselves against a lawsuit accusing the district of promoting religion by requiring that science textbooks warn students evolution is “a theory, not a fact.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6433295/

Cowperson

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan+Nov 8 2004, 03:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Displaced Flames fan @ Nov 8 2004, 03:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Lanny_MacDonald@Nov 7 2004, 07:42 PM

We'll see Dis. Are you aware that the majority of the school books in this country come from Texas and the content of these books is developed there? I didn't. I learned this only a few days ago when I also learned that Texas was changing their books to reflect creationism and christian family values. This information will now become part of the standard curriculum. All of this done quietly and efficiently. And I might add, having developed curriculum for a government institution, that there is a long process that you have to go through to get this done, so it has been happening behind the scenes for a while now. That was shocking to me and was part of my reasoning for the predictions in the other thread. So is it surprising that Wisconsin will make this change? Nope. Not after hearing that the books have already been printed and are there for delivery, all because of the change initiated in Texas.

What exactly are you trying to say? Because most schoolbooks are printed in Texas they are going to be inundated with creationism?

Seems pretty flimsy to me. Maybe you should try and point out a clear connection because I just don't understand what you're suggesting. What Texas decision are you referring to? [/b][/quote]
Here's the story in print. I heard it on NPR so it was a little different than what is printed.

Birds and the Bees?

[northernflame]

"ATLANTA - School officials in suburban Cobb County go to court Monday to defend themselves against a lawsuit accusing the district of promoting religion by requiring that science textbooks warn students evolution is “a theory, not a fact.”"

As this Scientific American article points out, evolution is a theory that is supported by factual evidence:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID...E49809EC588EEDF

Why do creationists seem so hell bent on the idea of having creationsim treated like a science? Where is their 'faith?'.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by northernflame@Nov 9 2004, 06:53 PM
"ATLANTA - School officials in suburban Cobb County go to court Monday to defend themselves against a lawsuit accusing the district of promoting religion by requiring that science textbooks warn students evolution is “a theory, not a fact.”"

As this Scientific American article points out, evolution is a theory that is supported by factual evidence:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID...E49809EC588EEDF

Why do creationists seem so hell bent on the idea of having creationsim treated like a science? Where is their 'faith?'.

Admitting the fact of evolution means losing "hand," in the words of George Costanza, losing control of thought.

If evolution is conceded, interpretation of faith would have to be adjusted to fit the facts and the facts are getting so far out there that faith can't really adjust much more.

A few years ago I think, the Catholic Church seemed to be on the verge of conceding life or evidence of it might be found on Mars.

It is concievable in your lifetime that evidence of planets similar to earth, potentially life bearing, might be found.

Where does a document or collection of documents written 2000 years ago on Earth fit into that?

I'm not a skeptic about evolution. I'm a skeptic about the Bible.

Cowperson

[RougeUnderoos]

This is kind of interesting. Spells out the Pope's view on the whole thing (he believes in evolution).

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/f...aticanview.html

[octothorp]

Interesting link, Rouge. I had no idea where the catholic church stood on the whole debate. I had always kinda assumed that they were anti-evolutionist.

[northernflame]

"Admitting the fact of evolution means losing "hand," in the words of George Costanza, losing control of thought.

If evolution is conceded, interpretation of faith would have to be adjusted to fit the facts and the facts are getting so far out there that faith can't really adjust much more.

A few years ago I think, the Catholic Church seemed to be on the verge of conceding life or evidence of it might be found on Mars.

It is concievable in your lifetime that evidence of planets similar to earth, potentially life bearing, might be found.

Where does a document or collection of documents written 2000 years ago on Earth fit into that?

I'm not a skeptic about evolution. I'm a skeptic about the Bible.

Cowperson"

Good post.

Can't one still concede the facts of evolution as we know them, without admitting the fact of evolution, and still have faith? I have to believe there are more than a few practicing scientists out there who believe in some form of spirituality.

As many have pointed out, correctly, on this board, there is a limit to how much science can reveal. Science can essentially falsify incorrect theories, but it can never prove a universal law.

In my mind, that reality leaves plenty of room for faith exist.

After all, faith is just that, faith - it requires no scientific or insitutionalized religious justification to exist.

The Catholic Church's response is not really a matter of faith, it's more a matter of responding to competitive pressures in order to survive. These same forces will see the Catholic Church open the priesthood to women in the not to distant future.

But that is a much different issue from the efforts of many to have creationism taught in schools as a viable scientific alternative to evolutionary theory.


Don't get me wrong, I too am a skeptic of the Bible. And a skeptic of the NHL. And a skeptic of the NHLPA. I have NO FAITH in those two organizations. :P

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by octothorp@Nov 9 2004, 08:50 PM
Interesting link, Rouge. I had no idea where the catholic church stood on the whole debate. I had always kinda assumed that they were anti-evolutionist.

Being a Catholic in name at least, I don't know any who are opposed to evolution. I really don't know where all that came from.

The thing I find funny about the whole religion atheism debate is that most atheists I talk to say they dislike Christianity because they see it a religion that is always seeking to convert people and followers always tell them what to/not to believe. Then atheists go and do the same thing to people who have a religion. Just an observation. Personally, both sides annoy me. :P

[Pileon]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction@Nov 7 2004, 01:28 PM
I just don't see why it has to be one or the other. Why can't evolution be God's mode of creating? Why can't disease, famine, etc, be the devil's way of destroying? The fact that the natural causes of these things is discovered doesn't mean that nature doesn't work along side God's will.

Faith and science are both partners and, at the same time, at odds with one another. In order to go from the unknown to the known, you sometimes have to take certain components on faith. Through repetition, faith is displaced by the known and established as fact (the world is flat).

People that rely so heavily on faith, don't want to confront the unknown. They know what they know and don't want to be proven any differently. They want things to remain as they are because that is what they understand.

Small wonder they distrust evolution. It is the entire process of discovering the unknown and causing things to change. It requires reflective reasoning and an open mind. Some people are good at this, many are not. People like to stay "in the box".

I find it a little disheartening at this stage of human evolution that more of the population hasn't developed an inquiring mind. There is so much we have learned and so much more to be discovered. I may have liked/disliked the 70's. It doesn't mean I have to stay in them. :P