[olby]Olbermann to Bush/Cheney, "Resign", others agree

[peter12]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

I really wouldn't try to argue with FOL, he is so far right, he makes fascists look like Moderate Republicans (really).

Do you understand libertarianism? If you did, you wouldn't make such ignorant comments.

On to Bush. I'm a conservative (not the small-c) and by the traditional republican standards of liberty and freedom of the individual, decentralization of the federal state and the reduced role of government, George W. Bush is an abomination.

The Republican Party has moved so far off from the principles of Newt Gringich and the revolution of the early 90's. What's worse is that the Democrats truly don't have any decent alternate policies in place and will run the next Presidential race as a "not them". That's just as bad for American politics.

[ricoFlame]

man, olbermann has sure come a long way from his days at espn.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by peter12

Presidential race as a "not them". That's just as bad for American politics.

Well this happened to an extent in the last canadian election as well, Peter. Partisianship will always be prevelant to varying degrees.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by peter12

Do you understand libertarianism? If you did, you wouldn't make such ignorant comments.

Have you listened to FOL and his ravings about Anarcho-Capitalism?

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by peter12

Do you understand libertarianism? If you did, you wouldn't make such ignorant comments.

On to Bush. I'm a conservative (not the small-c) and by the traditional republican standards of liberty and freedom of the individual, decentralization of the federal state and the reduced role of government, George W. Bush is an abomination.

The Republican Party has moved so far off from the principles of Newt Gringich and the revolution of the early 90's. What's worse is that the Democrats truly don't have any decent alternate policies in place and will run the next Presidential race as a "not them". That's just as bad for American politics.

And that is what is so stunning. The label "conservative" as it is used today (in the media, and in general) doesn't mean what it used to mean. Republican has totally shifted away from what they used to mean. Yet I think people look at the way the past was, see the ideals they strive for, then look at the current party names and that is how they vote. It isn't based on any real undestanding of the issues.

Right, left conservative, liberal, republican, deomcrat - all are labels that seem to have a very fluid definition. And I don't know if the general public has the interest in keeping up with what these people/politicians represent outside of the labels the media hangs on them (not that the media are the problem, other than that the media needs labels in order to (attempt to) fit the issues into a 2 minute news story)

[peter12]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

Well this happened to an extent in the last canadian election as well, Peter. Partisianship will always be prevelant to varying degrees.

What happened in the previous federal election had an element of "not them" in it for sure. That's what Canada's "new government" is all about. However, there was also a very effective communications effort made by the Conservative Party to notify and educate Canadians on genuine conservative policies and ideas.

Partisan politics will always, unfortunately, have it's place in elections. Real democracy takes place in the exchange of ideas. It has happened before, it just happened in France, and it can happen again. It just takes both sides to cooperate.

[badnarik]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

And that is what is so stunning. The label "conservative" as it is used today (in the media, and in general) doesn't mean what it used to mean. Republican has totally shifted away from what they used to mean. Yet I think people look at the way the past was, see the ideals they strive for, then look at the current party names and that is how they vote. It isn't based on any real undestanding of the issues.

ron paul could make a splash running as an old school republican. he has the ideals with a record to prove it.

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Misguided liberals throwing their feces again. What else is new?

I am a big fan of yours, Ann Coulter!!

[Calgaryborn]

What olbermann failed to acknowledge was that what Bush did was well within his right to do as President. If he truly considered Bush to be his President he would have weighed his reasoning rather than attack him from all angles. The fact is that Democratic leaders in congress Have never stood behind the President. They have stood behind the polls. The only reluctant support they have ever given was when not to would cost them votes. The Democrats have looked for ways to undermined this administration at every turn and the witch hunt to find evidence against the Vice President was fueled by them as well.

Well they missed the Vice President and got one of his staff. And now they are crying bloody murder because their President has said enough!

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

What olbermann failed to acknowledge was that what Bush did was well within his right to do as President. If he truly considered Bush to be his President he would have weighed his reasoning rather than attack him from all angles. The fact is that Democratic leaders in congress Have never stood behind the President. They have stood behind the polls. The only reluctant support they have ever given was when not to would cost them votes. The Democrats have looked for ways to undermined this administration at every turn and the witch hunt to find evidence against the Vice President was fueled by them as well.

Well they missed the Vice President and got one of his staff. And now they are crying bloody murder because their President has said enough!

Or they are crying bloody murder because the administration is violating the constitution and is refusing to be held accountable.

You say tomato.....

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by badnarik

ron paul could make a splash running as an old school republican. he has the ideals with a record to prove it.

One problem Ron Paul has, and I think this may become an issue for him, is that he is polling at 0% support.

The current numbers for the rest of the Republicans included in the survey: Former House speaker Newt Gingrich, 6%; former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee, 2%; Rep. Duncan Hunter, 2%; Rep. Tom Tancredo, 2%; Sen. Sam Brownback, 1%; Sen. Chuck Hagel, 1%; former Wisconsin governor Tommy Thompson, 1%. Neither former Virginia governor Jim Gilmore nor Rep. Ron Paul registered any support.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

What olbermann failed to acknowledge was that what Bush did was well within his right to do as President. If he truly considered Bush to be his President he would have weighed his reasoning rather than attack him from all angles. The fact is that Democratic leaders in congress Have never stood behind the President. They have stood behind the polls. The only reluctant support they have ever given was when not to would cost them votes. The Democrats have looked for ways to undermined this administration at every turn and the witch hunt to find evidence against the Vice President was fueled by them as well.

Well they missed the Vice President and got one of his staff. And now they are crying bloody murder because their President has said enough!

I think the key point is this: the executive SHOULD NOT have the right to do what Bush did. It's a clear conflict of interest, and in any case, the right to commute sentences is a holdover from the British monarchy--an executive privilege that used to be given to Kings, not elected officials. That should tell you all you need to know. The U.S. needs to dispense with this outdated "executive function"--it serves no purpose except to undermine people's confidence in their government.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by badnarik

ron paul could make a splash running as an old school republican. he has the ideals with a record to prove it.

I'd make a joke about ron paul's polling numbers being the only thing to make a 'splash' as the plummet down the crapper, but you have to actually have numbers for them to fall.

Ron Paul is the dennis kucinich of the republican party. Inconsequential.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

It is a shame that Bush and what’s left of his supporters are still too cowardly to admit their mistakes. “Staying the course” is just a weak cop out. Most conservatives realize this now, and want to see changes in policy. Full credit for doing so.

Are you talking about Iraq? Going to Iraq was a bad thing, not going to Iraq would have been a worse thing. What other policies are you talking about?

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

The 25% of Americans who continue to support Bush are the same ones that still think 9/11 was connected to Iraq, and that the earth is 6000 years old. Most of them will never see what is actually going on. You can fight ignorance, but not willfull blindness.

See Ken’s post.

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

Gore is fighting global warming.

Yeah, by spending 30k on his energy bill and persuading others to ride bikes. He’s a hypocrite that only fights to gain popularity.

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

Kerry won a bronze star in Vietnam.

Good on him.

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

Hillary Clinton wants the 80 million Americans without healthcare to have some.

If they want healthcare, they better pay for it themselves. Hilary Clinton is not a Santa Claus that pulls billions of dollars out of a chimney. All she can do is transfer the money from those who actually perform some kind of economic activity to those who sit on their butts all day and all they do is complain. Am I going to support that? Not a chance.

Are you able to see what is going on? Not a chance either.

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

On his best day, what does Bush have to offer as a comparable to any of those things?

Tax cuts. The more the merrier.

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

You are correct in that he isn’t one of the worst presidents in history. He is the worst. Nobody has damaged America more, at home or abroad.

The only shame Americans should feel is for giving in to fear, and letting that fear put their sense of reason to sleep for 6 years.

The good news? 75% are awake now.

Change is coming.

I sincerely hope you are dreaming, if not, the US will join Canada, the EU and the rest of misguided western world that makes it possible for socialism and populism to flourish.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

I really wouldn't try to argue with FOL, he is so far right, he makes fascists look like Moderate Republicans (really).

I cant believe someone can be so dense to say this. Actually, I can...right Caramon?

Oh and BTW, only misguided left wing nuts can claim that fascist were right wing. What was oh so right wing about fascism? Their love for a strong superstate? Their hate for freedom? Their disdain for free markets? Eh?

[Flash Walken]

I've often quiped at social evenings that 'libertarianism' is the last refuge of the ignorant.

That opinion seems to be becoming less of a turn of phrase and more of a solid belief with each passing day. Certainly, nothing is being done to dissuade me of that belief.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

All she can do is transfer the money from those who actually perform some kind of economic activity to those who sit on their butts all day and all they do is complain.

Ah... Bob Roberts.... love that song....

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Their disdain for free markets? Eh?

Support of private enterprise for one. They might have told you what to produce, but they sure as hell made a lot of people very very wealthy.

Perhaps I should have just specified that you were 'grade A' crazy? I assume that would have been slightly easier.

But hey, enjoy your Anarcho-Capitalist society - you might as well make the up the pledges you are going to be saying to your liege-lord right now.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Flame of Liberty, did you purchase Sean Hannity's talking points on ebay recently or something?

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Support of private enterprise for one. They might have told you what to produce, but they sure as hell made a lot of people very very wealthy.

Perhaps I should have just specified that you were 'grade A' crazy? I assume that would have been slightly easier.

But hey, enjoy your Anarcho-Capitalist society - you might as well make the up the pledges you are going to be saying to your liege-lord right now.

State corporativism means anything to you? Yup, thats a sign of love for free markets, are you serious? But good to know that you associate creation of wealth with free markets, very good.

I am pretty happy where I live, thank you, I dont have to deal with paleosocialist Canadian society