Arafat in a coma?

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Nov 4 2004, 07:51 PM
Just to be clear then, I'm wishing he dies.

There are other barriers to peace, including those on the Israeli side, but this guy is one of them on the Palestinian side.

Can you list anyone on the Israeli side that you wish was dead?

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by moon@Nov 4 2004, 09:07 PM
Just out of curiosity does everyone then hope the same death and suffering for Sharon?

I don't wish either of them suffer or die needlessly. Or, shockingly enough, any of you, or anyone alive. I haven't lost family, friends, livelihood, so it wouldn't make sense for me to wish someone ill. If I had lost these things, then maybe I'd have a right to be so angry to wish another person dead.

I think it might be hypocritical to wish suffering upon Arafat and not Sharon. Both have done awful things, both are responsible for the deaths of children, women, civilians, etc.

[octothorp]

Every time I look at the title I can't help humming, "Arafat in a coma, I know, I know, it's serious..."

While I don't wish death on anyone, I'm actually very glad that he's dying peacefully. While there still might be some sudden attacks by the Palestinians, it won't be nearly as violent as if he were killed by the Israelis.

[CaptainCrunch]

A very critical piece on Arafat that points to his money and Hammas links


Worldpress


Terrorists acts that he has been involved with include the Munich Olympics, the Achilles Laurel (sp?) hijacking

More on Arafat

more

[FlamesAddiction]

And where does it say he laughs?

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Agamemnon+Nov 4 2004, 09:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Agamemnon @ Nov 4 2004, 09:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowperson@Nov 4 2004, 07:51 PM
Just to be clear then, I'm wishing he dies.

There are other barriers to peace, including those on the Israeli side, but this guy is one of them on the Palestinian side.

Can you list anyone on the Israeli side that you wish was dead? [/b][/quote]
Not off hand or not anyone of consequence.

I also can't think of anyone in Iran or Syria I wished were dead either.

Kim Il Jung dying would probably be a good thing and yeah, come to think of it, I hope he dies.

I don't think I would wish Castro dead.

It wouldn't bother me if Chretien died but I don't think I'd wish him dead. I didn't wish Trudeau dead either.

Anyone left? Bin Laden? al-Zarqawi? Those are givens.

I stood by my father and watched him die. Its an awful thing. I don't take it lightly and I didn't offer the suggestion flippantly in the case of Arafat. But I meant it.

Cowperson

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction@Nov 4 2004, 10:06 PM
And where does it say he laughs?

my response had nothing to do with your quote, it was just some background on the type of person Arafat is.

Licia Corbella has recently done some interesting stories on video taped speeches by Arafat where he preaches peace in English, and something quite different in his own language.

He was also the guy that wrote a congratulatory letter to the mother of the Palestine suicide bomber on Aug 9th which killed 15 jews and wounded countless others.

Might not sound like laughing, but any guy who used to run the PLO, and masterminded some pretty horrific acts is a guy that I want to see dead

[Agamemnon]

Not off hand or not anyone of consequence.

Does that bother you? Are you worried that there should be people on the Israeli side that you'd wish dead, you just don't know about them? Do you wish people dead who's crimes you've extensively researched, or are you more or less going by whether or not the 'mainstream' wants him dead. I'm sure there's a plethora of crimes against humanity that Arafat's committed, but you could probably find similar crimes committed by Sharon, and to an extent, several American administrations.

I also can't think of anyone in Iran or Syria I wished were dead either.

Really? You don't want the Ayatollah dead?

It wouldn't bother me if Chretien died but I don't think I'd wish him dead. I didn't wish Trudeau dead either.

That's mighty big of you.

I stood by my father and watched him die. Its an awful thing. I don't take it lightly and I didn't offer the suggestion flippantly in the case of Arafat. But I meant it.

Truly interesting. Ironically, I also held my father's hand as he died in bed. That's when I realized I couldn't wish death on my worst enemy. Who the hell am I to decide (even in my head) who should live and who should die. Death takes us all, and I'm sure Arafat's sons (if he has any) are holding his hand right now.

I respect your opinion on the matter, I just don't agree with it.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch+Nov 4 2004, 10:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CaptainCrunch @ Nov 4 2004, 10:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-FlamesAddiction@Nov 4 2004, 10:06 PM
And where does it say he laughs?

my response had nothing to do with your quote, it was just some background on the type of person Arafat is.

Licia Corbella has recently done some interesting stories on video taped speeches by Arafat where he preaches peace in English, and something quite different in his own language.

He was also the guy that wrote a congratulatory letter to the mother of the Palestine suicide bomber on Aug 9th which killed 15 jews and wounded countless others.

Might not sound like laughing, but any guy who used to run the PLO, and masterminded some pretty horrific acts is a guy that I want to see dead [/b][/quote]
No doubt.

I don't know anyone who thinks Arafat is a nice guy, but we could go back and forth between the nasty things done by Arafat and his Israeli adversaries. As nasty as Sharon was back in the heyday, and how indifferent he is today to Palestinian casualities, I would never say that he laughs about it - just like I wouldn't say the same thing about Arafat. The type of people who say that sort of thing are they same as those Arabs who say the same thing about Sharon.

Personally, I wouldn't care if either of them died, and I am pretty sure that they will both go to hell. Arafat maybe a little more so.

[Lurch]

I was just reading an article about Arafat's impending death and Israeli's response, and it becomes painfully obvious that this conflict will never go away.

Among Israel’s plans are ways to prevent Arafat from being buried in Jerusalem. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has said he would not permit Arafat to be buried in the city, claimed by both Israel and the Palestinians as their capital.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6402008/

How hard would it be for Sharon to put out the olive branch to Palestine, say "We had our differences, but we'd like to make this gesture" and let Arafat be buried there if that is what Palestinians want. What's it cost them versus what is the potential good will? Idiots - let's start a fight over where the guy gets buried, and make sure it big, divisive deal.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Lurch@Nov 4 2004, 10:49 PM
I was just reading an article about Arafat's impending death and Israeli's response, and it becomes painfully obvious that this conflict will never go away.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6402008/

How hard would it be for Sharon to put out the olive branch to Palestine, say "We had our differences, but we'd like to make this gesture" and let Arafat be buried there if that is what Palestinians want. What's it cost them versus what is the potential good will? Idiots - let's start a fight over where the guy gets buried, and make sure it big, divisive deal.

It's hard enough for an ordinary muslims to be burried there. Israeli land is reserved for those with Jewish lineage first and foremost.

But yeah, it wouldn't hurt to make a gesture of goodwill in this case.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction@Nov 4 2004, 10:55 PM
It's hard enough for an ordinary muslims to be burried there. Israeli land is reserved for those with Jewish lineage first and foremost.

But yeah, it wouldn't hurt to make a gesture of goodwill in this case.

That sounds kind of 'racist'. Any more info on this? Is it Israelis who receive preference, or Jews? If its Israelis, then its defensible.

[Superfraggle]

My Greek and Roman prof's theory on all this is that he may be dead, but they don't want to admit it until they've prepared a replacement so that they can make the announcement around midnight and have a new government in place already in the morning. This might help prevent any war of succession type of thing, since Arafat hasn't named an heir.

[moon]

Originally posted by Agamemnon+Nov 4 2004, 04:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Agamemnon @ Nov 4 2004, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-FlamesAddiction@Nov 4 2004, 10:55 PM
It's hard enough for an ordinary muslims to be burried there. Israeli land is reserved for those with Jewish lineage first and foremost.

But yeah, it wouldn't hurt to make a gesture of goodwill in this case.

That sounds kind of 'racist'. Any more info on this? Is it Israelis who receive preference, or Jews? If its Israelis, then its defensible. [/b][/quote]
Of course it is racist and preferential.

The whole creation of the Israeli state was preferential and extremely unfair and ridiculous. Since 1949 the whole concept of the state has been racist in kicking out the Arabs who had a rightful claim to stay on THEIR land, unlike the Jewish Israelis.

[habernac]

blame the UN....

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by habernac@Nov 4 2004, 11:28 PM
blame the UN....

Lol, yep, it surely was the member-states of the UN that caused a lot of these issues.

One of the greatest single instances where the UN dropped the ball was in designating all Palestinian refugees and their descendants refugee status from Israel. I think this is the only case in the world where descendants of refugees are also given refugee status and allowed to claim a 'right of return'. I think maybe 100,000 Palestinians were initally kicked out (not sure out of what exactly, Israel or just Israel-proper), and now there are 3,500,000 of descendants and additions wanting to 'return'.

Definitely the UN member-states fault that time, terrible precedent.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Agamemnon+Nov 4 2004, 11:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Agamemnon @ Nov 4 2004, 11:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-FlamesAddiction@Nov 4 2004, 10:55 PM
It's hard enough for an ordinary muslims to be burried there.# Israeli land is reserved for those with Jewish lineage first and foremost.

But yeah, it wouldn't hurt to make a gesture of goodwill in this case.

That sounds kind of 'racist'. Any more info on this? Is it Israelis who receive preference, or Jews? If its Israelis, then its defensible. [/b][/quote]
It's true that it is difficult for muslims to be burried in Israel and land for burial is reserved for Jews. There are cemetaries for other religions, but an article I read in the Haaretz Daily about a year ago described how many are at capacity or have been re-zoned and there are no palns for new ones.

Of course, let's be real. Israel allows for more religious freedom than most countries in the region, but they are still extremely protectionist. It is racist to some extent, but there is a movement among liberals in Israel to change it.

For example, at least one IDF soldier who considered himself Jewish and was killed in action during the period of this report was not eligible for burial in the Jewish section of a military cemetery because he was not Jewish under Orthodox Jewish law. After considerable public outcry over the ruling that he was not eligible for a Jewish funeral, the father of the soldier announced that he was satisfied with the portion of the cemetery where his son would be laid to rest, a portion reserved for persons whose Jewishness was in question. Following the Dolphinarium discotheque bombing in June 2001, which killed 21 Israelis, some religious authorities questioned whether several of the young victims, who were immigrants from the former Soviet Union, qualified for Jewish burial. One of the victims ultimately was buried in a special part of a cemetery reserved for persons whose Jewish identity was "in doubt." Newspapers reported that the decision distressed many Russian immigrants.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2002/13997.htm

Until recently, the Orthodox religious establishment had sole responsibility for the maintenance of all Jewish cemeteries and burial services in Israel, and almost no alternative to Orthodox burial existed. As a result, non-Jewish family members, non-Orthodox converts, and liberal Jews were and often still are denied dignified burials according to their own traditions. With the passage by the Knesset of the Right to Alternative Civil Burial Law, the situation should improve, however only one alternative cemetery has opened so far. An additional problem arises when individuals wish to erect headstones including inscriptions containing non-Hebrew wording or dates, even though a Supreme Court decision allowed the use of such inscriptions.

http://www.irac.org/sub_topics_e.asp?topic=25

[Cowperson]

Not off hand or not anyone of consequence.
Does that bother you?

Nope.

Are you worried that there should be people on the Israeli side that you'd wish dead, you just don't know about them?

Nope.

You could extend that into the darkest trenches of either side and come up with a list as long as your arm, including the Israeli officer arrested a few weeks ago for pumping 13 bullets or so into a helpless Palestininan girl. I'm perfectly aware crimes are committed on both sides.

I view the Palestinians as morons which is a little different than "victims." They've been milked for 50 years by their false friends and opportunistic leaders. Israel has traded land for peace twice, with Egypt and Jordan, and was near a similar agreement with Syria. It has a track record of trading land for peace. Instead of taking advantage of that , Palestinians continue to try to defeat an opponent who is simply a fact that won't go away. The more they ratchet up the pressure, the more The Wall gets completed to shut them into a rat hole like animals and the more likely it is that an Ariel Sharon gets elected once again.

They'd have a country by now if Yasser Arafat hadn't been their leader. I view Ariel Sharon's rise as an Israeli reaction to Arafat's continued intrasigence. Good riddance to him.

I don't have to wish every psychotic or opportunistic killer on either side dead. That's rather pointless.

I also can't think of anyone in Iran or Syria I wished were dead either.
Really? You don't want the Ayatollah dead?

Which one? Some of them? One of them? All of them? The one's who encouraged teenagers with a promise of eternal paradise to run across deserts without weapons into Iraqi machine gun fire?

Why not wish the Pope dead?

Nope.

It wouldn't bother me if Chretien died but I don't think I'd wish him dead. I didn't wish Trudeau dead either.
That's mighty big of you.

I thought that was big of me too given the number of people cheering in Alberta when Trudeau died and who probably wish the same imminent fate on Chretien.

Barbarians.

Ironically, I also held my father's hand as he died in bed.

Sorry to hear about your father. We share that experience.

Cowperson

[Bleeding Red]

Wow, a lot of ground to cover.

Wanting Arafat dead - Yes, I wish him dead. The man had no problem with coldblooded murder and had many opportunities to lead his people to statehood through peaceful means but continually chose violence. There is a saying - "Arafat never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity" - He will go to his grave knowing that his violent ways did not work.

Arafat encouraged, paid and enshrined teenage palestinian suicide bombers and required his soldiers to shoot at Israelis from church windows, school roofs and from the middle of swarms of children - human sheilds are the best in his strategy.


Buring Arafat on the Temple Mount - This, in my mind, is like burying Charles Manson in Arlington cemetary. There are Muslims buried there, Faisel Husseini was a prominent Palestinian leader in Jerusalem and is buried there. Arafat's grave will become a shrine and a pilgramage point and Israel cannot have it at the foot of their holiest site.

Israeli Cemataries - LIKE IN CANADA, there are cemataries for different religions. I cannot be burried in a Catholic cematary, as I am not Catholic. If one's religion is in question, then it is up to that religion's ruling body to work it out. Many immigrants from the former Soviet Union feld to Israel claiming to be Jewish, but were not, hance the concern there.


Israel's Creation - This was not a racist creation. Jew have been living in Israel for millenia. Jewish attachment to the land of Israel is a basic tennat of the religion and heritage. Many Arabs left Israel in 1948 at the behest of their leaders who felt they could crush the Jews in the war. Conversly an equal amount of Jews were expelled from Middle East countries at the same time. Israel absorbed these refugees, the Arab world chose to keep Arab refugees in camps.

Israel as a racist state - Far from the truth. Israeli Muslims, Bahai-ists (sp?), Christians, Bhuddists all enjoy the same freedoms as Jews. They can all vote, be elected to office, are free to move unencumbered with in the state and to other countries, have the same rights under the law, can sit on the same beaches, ride the same buses (any seat), have freedom of religion, freedom of speech and freedom of expression. Canada and Israel have something in common, both have MPs whose goal is separation and the demise of the country. whereas Syria does not allow Jews into their country, regardless of passport. Jews cannot vote or hold office in any Arab country. Jews in Iran (less than 500) are taxed more that other citizens and cannot go across town, let alone move to another city, without papers and permission.


Israel does not want peace - again a falsehood. Israel is willing to go to the edge of the cliff for peace, just not over it. Also note, there is no Palestinian equivilant to Peace Now and Jews are not lynched in the streets for suggesting peace.


May there be peace in our time soon

[moon]

Originally posted by Bleeding Red@Nov 5 2004, 07:47 AM

Israel's Creation - This was not a racist creation. Jew have been living in Israel for millenia. Jewish attachment to the land of Israel is a basic tennat of the religion and heritage. Many Arabs left Israel in 1948 at the behest of their leaders who felt they could crush the Jews in the war. Conversly an equal amount of Jews were expelled from Middle East countries at the same time. Israel absorbed these refugees, the Arab world chose to keep Arab refugees in camps.


May there be peace in our time soon

There were also Arabs that had been living in the area for millenia and more importantly at the time of creation. How many of the Israeli Jews that came to Israel during its creation and formation were living there at the time?

Muslims, Christians and Jews all have an attachment to the area and yet it is only the Jews who feel they have the right to come in and remove people from their homes.

The creation of Israel may not have been racist but it certainly was arrogant, ill-concieved and distgusts me.