[book]Defining Israel as a Jewish state is the key to its end

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

So having been persecuted for thousands of years is legitimate reasoning for intensely agressive warmongering, ghettozation of other races, occultish nationalism, unbridled patriotism, and the constant push from all sides to believe in a singular ideal?

The reality is, most Jews absolutely hate each other. In the Calgary Jewish community alone, I have never seen so much infighting, internal discrimination based on wealth, and general elitism than elsewhere.

How else can our private schools justify charging over $5000/per student per year (plus numerous synagogue gratuities), while shutting out the poorer (read: middle class) Jews from obtaining a proper education wherein they can do proper Torah and language study? On that note, why does this insanely expensive schooling include support of Zionist 'charitable' groups and the teachings against other religious/regional groups? Why the hell is this right?

I had family members not survive the chambers, I have known numerous elderly who did in fact escape Europe during/after the war, but if these peoples suffering are enough to justify hatemongering and introversion on behalf of an entire group of people, well, that's just messed right up.

PS It's not racism unless the bigotry is directed towards one of the three existing races: Caucasoid, Negroid, and Mongoloid. Go read an anthropology text book smart guy.

I dont think the problems you're talking about are unique to the jewish people. Jews like all other groups are diverse. Things like classism and infighting are extremely common in all people. Do you think an irishman living in pump hill is automatically friends with an irishman in forest lawn because they share a common heritage? Not a ing chance.

Although I disagree w/ HOZ' statement that criticism of Israel's existence is facism, holding jews or Israeli's to a higher standard than everyone else definately is. This is the major problem with most criticism of Israel. They expect Israeli's to act perfectly in all situations and ignore the fact they are in a nasty war their existence depends on. Meanwhile surrounding arab nations are given a free ticket to do anything.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Laugh. You might want to think about who you are giving lectures before you call anyone else arrogant.

You and Walken can laugh all you want, but the fact remains that HOZ and blankall have said smarter things in this thread than both of you combined.

I find it fascinating how the western left loves to kick Isreal at every opportunity, however, if you dare to say anything about natives, blacks or palestinians, you will be crucified as a racist.

Hypocrisy, anyone?

[Bleeding Red]

Interesting how the thread focused on the lone phrase equating Israel with Germany. I found three other phrases in the article that made me think:

"A Jewish State is explosive, it's dynamite"
- what does he mean by this? Is the 'idea' of a Jewish state explosive to other world states? Does it just give focus to anti-Jewish furvor around the world? Will one large group of Jews in one area have an infinate number of opinions and be dynamite?

He "calls on everyone who can to obtain a forgien passport"
- think about that of a minute. Imagine a former provinical premier, or someone of similar stature to Preston Maning or Brian Mulrouny, anouncing that Canada is going down the tubes and anyone who can should run to get a US, UK, French passport, or should hold on to their Alberta birth certificates tightly to be able to get back into Alberta when they finnaly cut the rest of Canada loose.

He is basically saying there is no hope!


Lastly - "They created a situation in which the goy can be my father and my mother and my son and my partner"
- Now he seems to be going from this Intelectual 'Israel is doomed" guy to a religious zelot berating the situation that allows inter-merriage.

What exactly is he upset with? Jews are not Jewish enough? Jews are falling by the wayside regardsless of the existance of Israel? We need an escape route from our safe haven?

Sounds to me like he is a bit bitter.

(though not as bitter as PsYcNeT - I don't know what Hebrew school did to you....I spent fifteen years at CHS, and though I wasn't the most popular or best student (geek is the offical term) I have to admit that most of the students I knew (who I run into every now and then when I return to CGY and here in TO) and I reminiss fondly of our experience - to the point where many of our kids are in Hebrew school (in my case to the tune of $12,000 per kid - noting that no one is turned away and subsidies are readily available; the whole charity issue is another thread altogether, but those schools mostly are obligated to the organizations from which they receive funds.- The Jewish community is no different than any other ethnic community, especially when money and pride is involved (I recall the bruhaha here over expatriot Italians running and voting in Italy's elections). Not sure what hatemongering your are refering to - my Hebrew teachers told stories about their experiences in the '67 & '73 wars, but always ended with a hope for peace and reconcilliation. The worst they may have done was teach us to draw the map of israel without the boarders of the West Bank & Gaza.) - you might want to see someone about post traumatic Hebrew school stress.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by blankall

They are actually quite different. The ultimate goal of the gaza and west bank is an autonomous palestinian state. Also killing is not indiscriminate. You may want to think differently, but Israel is attacked everyday. ALL attacks are directed at militants. Yes there are lots of civilian casaulties, but that is because militatnts hide w/out uniforms in civilian areas.

Can we please dispense with the cognitive dissonance and rhetoric? The ultimate goal (or final solution…)of Gaza and the West Bank is not an autonomous Palestinian state, much like the ultimate goal of the Golan Heights isn’t an autonomous Golan or Druze state. Were that the case from the perspective of Israel, ‘Palestine’ would already be a state. If you don’t believe me that Israel has wanted no part of a Palestinian state, read the reports of what Barak offered Arafat at Camp David. According to the popular account, Barak offered Arafat a very sweet offer, but that Arafat refused, the reasons given vary. Of course, there isn’t much in the way of documentation about what each side offered (neither seemingly willing to put a proposal down on paper), but if what Barak offered Arafat was indeed what he claims, why wouldn’t Israel have accepted the Saudi proposal? The Saudi proposal, which went even further than the alleged Israeli proposal at Camp David, was accepted by the PA and the entire Arab League. If Israel was indeed such an altruistic state, wanting nothing but a separate and autonomous Palestinian state to co-exist with in peace, you’d think they would jump at the chance to accept a deal that didn’t even include the right of return.

There are also other opinions of the Camp David talks:

Not surprisingly, the Israeli plan alone was on the negotiating table at Camp David in the summer of 2000. Endorsed by the Americans, it offered withdrawal from most of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, leaving about 15 per cent of original Palestine for the Palestinians, in the form of discrete cantons bisected by highways, settlements, army camps and walls. No capital in Jerusalem, no solution to the refugee problem and total abuse of the concept of statehood and independence. Even the fragile Arafat, who had hitherto seemed to be happy with the Salata (the perks of power), having never exercised Sulta (actual power), could not sign a document that made a mockery of every Palestinian demand. He was immediately depicted as a warmonger.

As for the indiscriminant killing…

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Also comparing israel's actions to the nazi's (which you have done w/ the reference to Germany's ghettos) is totally out of line. If Israel's actions were in anyway comparable there would be no problem since there would be no palestinians.

I never said they were committing a holocaust. If you can’t see any parallels between Israel building massive walls separating Palestinians from encroaching, illegal, Israeli settlements, causing the disruption of any kind of economy resulting in massive malnutrition, and Warsaw ghettoization, you should re-examine your historical perspective. Lebensraum could very accurately be described by Israeli settlement building and further hemming in of Palestinians. Those aren’t the only parallels to be drawn either. There are ‘Jews Only’ roads to scenes like this.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

You and Walken can laugh all you want, but the fact remains that HOZ and blankall have said smarter things in this thread than both of you combined.

I find it fascinating how the western left loves to kick Isreal at every opportunity, however, if you dare to say anything about natives, blacks or palestinians, you will be crucified as a racist.

Hypocrisy, anyone?

Thanks, I will laugh all I want. He's giving a holocaust history lecture to someone who actually lost ancestors to the holocaust. If you want to yak about how smart that is, fill your boots.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Can we please dispense with the cognitive dissonance and rhetoric? The ultimate goal (or final solution…)of Gaza and the West Bank is not an autonomous Palestinian state, much like the ultimate goal of the Golan Heights isn’t an autonomous Golan or Druze state. Were that the case from the perspective of Israel, ‘Palestine’ would already be a state. If you don’t believe me that Israel has wanted no part of a Palestinian state, read the reports of what Barak offered Arafat at Camp David. According to the popular account, Barak offered Arafat a very sweet offer, but that Arafat refused, the reasons given vary. Of course, there isn’t much in the way of documentation about what each side offered (neither seemingly willing to put a proposal down on paper), but if what Barak offered Arafat was indeed what he claims, why wouldn’t Israel have accepted the Saudi proposal? The Saudi proposal, which went even further than the alleged Israeli proposal at Camp David, was accepted by the PA and the entire Arab League. If Israel was indeed such an altruistic state, wanting nothing but a separate and autonomous Palestinian state to co-exist with in peace, you’d think they would jump at the chance to accept a deal that didn’t even include the right of return.

There are many good reasons why Israel has not accepted the Saudi Arabian offer.

First of all Israel gained the land in a defensive war. Why should they just give it all back in exchange for nothing? First arab forces try to invade Israel with the goal of murdering every jew there. After the arabs lose Israel should just give the land back in its entirety and wait for the next attack?

Second of all what promise of security does Israel have it returns all the land. Israel returned the Gaza in its entirety what did they get? Daily rocket attacks.

Third all the Saudi's are offering is normalization of relations. This is nothing. What guarantee's do they have that the arab nations will not break this treaty just as they did in '49, '67 or '73....none. Is the Saudi government going to go into every mosque and force the people there to stop spouting rhetoric? Basically, if they go along with this Israel would be giving vulnerable borders in exchange for nothing. Gaza has demonstrated that once land is given it is very difficult to retrieve.

Yeah, the orginal goal of hte west bank and the gaza was never an autonomous palestinian state, but here's a news flash: there never has been one. Where were these calls for an independent state during hte 20 years the west bank was a part of jordan? Yet Israel is expected to offer a state to an admitantly hostile group of people. why? they should be forced to commit suicide because you think thats what human rights means?

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I never said they were committing a holocaust. If you can’t see any parallels between Israel building massive walls separating Palestinians from encroaching, illegal, Israeli settlements, causing the disruption of any kind of economy resulting in massive malnutrition, and Warsaw ghettoization, you should re-examine your historical perspective. Lebensraum could very accurately be described by Israeli settlement building and further hemming in of Palestinians. Those aren’t the only parallels to be drawn either. There are ‘Jews Only’ roads to scenes like this.

The wall and the disruptiosn did not start until AFTER the infitada and the wave of suicide bombs it brought with it. The jews in Israel have a real need for that wall. Prior to the wall you had several suicide bombings every week in a country about the size of Toronto. Can you imagine what would happen in Canada if there were several terrorist attacks in Toronto every week? Remember the FLQ crisis? The wall servers a security purpose. There are over a million arabs living on the Israeli side too. So no it is nothing like the nazi's. Say what you want about the barrier, but the simple truth is it works and nothing else has.

Yes the palestinians are poor. They've, however, been given a ton of money which is squandered by corrupt leaders and spent on weapons. You always hear about how malnurished palestians are yet they seem to have more than enought money for AK47s. Ever wonder how much an AK47, plastic explosives, or a rocket cost vs a sandwhich? They also happen to be one of the fastest growing populations in the world.

I love how you accuse the Israelis of indiscriminate killing yet you ignore the effects of a suicide bombing. So Israel finds out a militant is planning a suicide bombing but hte bomber is hiding in a civilian area. You think the jews should just lie down and die? Of course civilians are going to die if you house military operations in residential areas. Yes innocent palestinians have died, but have you ever noticed how the jews dont have parades after they accidentally kill a child? They are not proud of it, but it has to be done as long as they are surrounded by hostility.

Basically my point is this. Despite what you want to believe, Israel's actions are based on security. It is a tiny nation surrounded by hostiles. You expect them to act perfectly. Accuse them of indiscriminate killings but ignore the reasons for these killings and the fact they are no so indiscriminate. In your argument you're willing to ignore a suicide bombing yet are more than willing to cry foul when civilians die in an operation targeting militants... it makes not sense.

As for "jews only roads". THere are no jews only roads. There are Israeli only roads. Palestinians are NOT Israeli citizens. Like I said before arabs make up about 20% of the Israelis.

I'll be the first to admit Israel has done a lot of nasty things, but so have the arabs. It is a nasty war. You, however, hold one side to a golden standard and give the other a license to do anything they want... why?