Feds, province, police blamed in Ipperwash report

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by moon

No he was swearing at the particular indians that were in the park not the whole race.

It is not racist and I don't even think it is all that offensive in any way other than to people who are over sensitive about swearing.

Calculoso was saying the phrase isn't rascist in whatever context. If I refer to you as &&^%%$%&* chinaman, greek, ukranian or whatever in a WASP setting where the person being referred to is a minority, it's rascist or at least it's predjudice. If I'm out on a reserve and someone calls me a **&&^^%& whiteman than that's rascist but if say you call me that, I'll just laugh. Our words are powerfull and it isn't the swearing, it's the disrespect we show when we attack a group of people.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Calculoso was saying the phrase isn't rascist in whatever context. If I refer to you as &&^%%$%&* chinaman, greek, ukranian or whatever in a WASP setting where the person being referred to is a minority, it's rascist or at least it's predjudice. If I'm out on a reserve and someone calls me a **&&^^%& whiteman than that's rascist but if say you call me that, I'll just laugh. Our words are powerfull and it isn't the swearing, it's the disrespect we show when we attack a group of people.

I would agree with him than that overall the phrase is not that racist either. Of course there would be incidents when the person using it was doing so in a racist manner but I don't think that just uttering that phrase is racist or prejudice in any manner.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Well, you're not swearing at someone, you're swearing at a whole race. There is a big difference. As for me being overly sensitive, that's a laugh. I've worked in construction for many years and give as good as I take but when you swear at a whole race, you're swearing at kids too, and they don't need that.

I dont think that the fact that kids are involved matters at all.

Should a politican say something like that? No. Should anyone say something like that? No. But is it racist? I dont think so.

Im also tired of the double standard. "F**** whitey", "cracker", "white-boy", etc... are all accepted for some reason, but "F**** Indians" deserves an investigation or any type of second look? I dont think so.

This should be a non-issue.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by duncan

Okay, the land in question was a reserve for the Stony Point tribe, which no longer existed, and hadn't for more than 40 years. Of the natives involved, less than 10% had any actual claim to the land, most were from distant reserves, and several were members of a group that local natives call the 'Nation', that go from area to area, stirring up crap. The action was not supported by the elders of the actual reserve (Kettle Point) that still exists 5 miles south of there. The Military allowed them to take the base back, even helping with some electrical issues, but the group then decided they wanted the attached provincial park as well. The 'Nation' has been involved in Oka, Caledonia and Miramichi, and were known to be armed radicals. Since Ipperwash, the natives have laid claim to Sarnia's chemical valley, Wasaga Beach, and all waters of Lake Huron. In August of 2006, they blocked the sinking of a clean ship, 45 miles from any reserve, because Lake Huron is their sacred ground, and they should have been consulted earlier (bought off). A couple years earlier, they put a claim on Grand Bend beach, merely for parking revenue. In Northern Ontario, they ousted several cottagers, because their properties were along the lake that they had laid claim to. The cottagers, who had spent hundreds of thousands of dollars, in legal transactions, were given 12 hours to vacate their dream homes, with no opportunity to return.
There have been no homes erected on this disputed land, in the 13 plus years since they stormed in. The buildings that were there, are in disrepair, there are old cars, and appliances dumped all over the place. Dudley George's trailer is rotting to the ground. The legal owners of surrounding property; farmers, cottagers, and retirees, have seen their property values plummet, because of the incident, and continuous issues. These same claims are happening all over Ontario, New Brunswick, and BC. Alberta will be next, there is alot of valuable property there. In Caledonia, they laid claim to a new subdivision, after an investor had sunk millions into it. Imagine your subdivision is the next one, you build your dream home, spend your life savings, and bye bye, out you go with nothing.

As far as the weapons, members of the Kettle Point tribe have reported that members of the Nation were armed. Neighbours of the base reported shots fired. Dudley George was not armed, and I am not making lite of his death, but the invaders of the Military base should also take some blame for it. Kenneth Deane was not an OPP sniper, but a uniformed Acting Sgt. THere were reports of weapons, and the officers had theirs drawn, and the natives instigated aggression, because dressed riot police were present. I know Oficers that were present, and I know natives that were as well, and it was a scary environment for both.

Ahh.. someone who knows what they are talking about in this matter.

I hate to say it, but Camp Ipperwash did turn into yet another place for Natives to dump their old cars and appliances. It's disgusting to see. I spent almost every summer of my childhood, and indeed I'm planning to go there this summer, on West Ipperwash Beach, in view of Kettle Point.

It's crazy to see the clear distinction between the reserve land and the cottagers. Not to mention the problems that the land owners have had to deal with for well over 20 years now. I don't want to sound like I'm type-casting the people there, but my grandparents, who are now 80, have had to deal with constant problems living there. We've had theft of boats, jet-ski's, motorcycles, cars, tools, jewlery, other assorted break-in's, and all of it attributed to the natives on the other side of the street.

It's a real shame what's become of the native population in Canada.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Well, you're not swearing at someone, you're swearing at a whole race.

A whole race?

He was referring to the people in the park. The people that were indians.

"Those #$%# rednecks are blocking the tracks again"... All rednecks or just the ones blocking the tracks?

Get a grip.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by calculoso

A whole race?

He was referring to the people in the park. The people that were indians.

"Those #$%# rednecks are blocking the tracks again"... All rednecks or just the ones blocking the tracks?

Get a grip.

Yeah, he was referring to the people in the park but you said saying "F***** Indians" isn't rascist and I'm done arguing with somebody who seems to think it's okay.

[duncan]

I had to return to this thread, since a local paper did a land claim summary for the Native Day of Protest next Friday. Here is the recent land claims and money grabs by surrounding reserves;

1. Chippewas of Kettle and Stony Point First Nation-
Members claim the partial surrender of the Kettle Point reserve in 1927 and its subsequent sale was illegal, and the surrender and sale of 377 acres of the Stoney Point Reserve was invalid. Native protesters occupied the Ipperwash Provincial Park, claiming it held an ancestral burial ground, and demanded the return of Camp Ipperwash, a semi-defunct military base. Members of these 2 groups, stormed the base, because they felt the land claim wasn't being dealt with fast enough. Subsequent claims have included the beaches at Grand Bend, and Lakeshore property North to the Goderich area.

2. Oneida Nation of the Thames, Munsee Delaware First Nation, and Chippewas of the Thames First Nation -
All 3 bands live near the Green Lane landfill, now owned by the City of Toronto, for a landfill site. The bands objected to the $200-million sale, claiming a) 5,120 acres of the Big Bear Creek Reserve was sold by the Crown in the 1830s without proper surrender by members, b) the mega-dump would pollute their land, air and water, and c) this would hamper expansion of their reserves. All 3 have since struck compensation deals, that eased their environmental concerns.

3. Walpole Island First Nation -
Outstanding land claims include the Canadian portions of Lake Huron, south of Goderich; Lake St. Clair, the St. Clair and Detroit rivers and the western part of Lake Ontario. Other claims include the Chenail Ecarte, Sombra Township, a portion of the former Chatham Township and Boblo Island. They want all rights to shipping and fishing in the area, as well as compensation for usage and pollution.

4. Chippewas of Nawash Unceded First Nation -
The band and Saugeen First Nation have claimed water beginning 18 kilometres south of Goderich (the 4th band to claim this area), west to the U.S. border, north around the tip of the Bruce Peninsula, east to the middle of Georgian Bay and south to Nottawasaga Bay. The two bands also want 50,000 acres in the peninsula returned, plus money for treaty violations.

5. Caldwell First Nation-
The natives claim Point Pelee and Pelee Island, which they say they never surrendered in a 1790 treaty, and they claim was promised to them in 1812, for fighting with the British. This land is rich in farmland and vineyards.

6. Chippewas of Sarnia (Aamjiwnaang First Nation)-
Band members have blocked roads in protest against new industry. The natives also claim 2,450 acres of their land (large chunk of Sarnia) was sold by the Crown in 1840 without their permission. Their goal is financial compensation (taxation), for use of their land, and for an unusual birth pattern (two girls born for every boy).

This is just a small portion of the province, and different bands are claiming the same lands as their own.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by kermitology

It's a real shame what's become of the native population in Canada.

This is something that really strikes home with me. I went to an Alternative School with a large native population. This school was very oriented towards them because of this. A lot of Native art, Native oriented classes, Native speakers. Now the classes and speakers were usually on a sign-up basis. You would usually miss your lunch break, very rarely would it supplant an actual class. Now these programs filled up, but less than 10% of the attendees would be native in a school that was nearly 50% native! These speakers were here to talk about their culture, teach them things they didn't know yet, and to teach them things about their past and they couldn't give a flying f---.

I have never seen such blatant dis-regard for someone's own culture in such a large base of people. These kids were more concerned with what they were going to buy with their next government cheque (the 18+ ones), bragging about their status card and getting a discount on smokes.

To further this point my sister-in-law is native and lives on a Reserve up in West Bank near Kelowna. She runs a program to teach native pre-teens and teens about their culture. Last time I spoke with her about this, she was having trouble with attendance because of a drug problem on the reserve. This was a couple years ago and I haven't spoken with her since, but it frustrates me that I have more interest in their wonderful culture than they do.

[Vulcan]

"land claims and money grabs" eh, Duncan. Looks like they're learning from the whiteman quite well and even taking some initiative. Everybody's always complaining about that.

[duncan]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

"land claims and money grabs" eh, Duncan. Looks like they're learning from the whiteman quite well and even taking some initiative. Everybody's always complaining about that.

Nice comparison....
80 years ago, the government (under the War Act) displaced several natives, placing them on government reserves. This land was provided tax free, as was their homes on this land. They were given financial compensation, and granted a tax free status. Seeing that the average salary is $25 000, and the average person pays about half their income in some form of tax, I think they have been more than compensated for the land over the last 8 decades. The issue at hand, is the claims on lands that weren't inhabitted by their bands (3 different bands claiming the same shore of Lake Huron). The London area tribes had no interest in the Green Lane area, until Toronto bought the land, and they saw profit. They quickly lost their environmental outrage, when the money passed hands, as has the Chemical Valley natives. The Rama natives lost interest in their land claims, when the casino rights were granted. What this amounts to is getting wrongfully dismissed from a job, getting a settlement, suing again five years later, getting a settlement, suing again five years later, settling, suing again five years later........

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

This is something that really strikes home with me. I went to an Alternative School with a large native population. This school was very oriented towards them because of this. A lot of Native art, Native oriented classes, Native speakers. Now the classes and speakers were usually on a sign-up basis. You would usually miss your lunch break, very rarely would it supplant an actual class. Now these programs filled up, but less than 10% of the attendees would be native in a school that was nearly 50% native! These speakers were here to talk about their culture, teach them things they didn't know yet, and to teach them things about their past and they couldn't give a flying f---.

I have never seen such blatant dis-regard for someone's own culture in such a large base of people. These kids were more concerned with what they were going to buy with their next government cheque (the 18+ ones), bragging about their status card and getting a discount on smokes.

To further this point my sister-in-law is native and lives on a Reserve up in West Bank near Kelowna. She runs a program to teach native pre-teens and teens about their culture. Last time I spoke with her about this, she was having trouble with attendance because of a drug problem on the reserve. This was a couple years ago and I haven't spoken with her since, but it frustrates me that I have more interest in their wonderful culture than they do.

I know two native boys who grew up in a northern isolated Cree reserve. They spoke perfect Cree and some French [goes back to the voyageur days]. They were visiting a southern reserve and the adults thought it was great that these two boys spoke Cree but the kids their age laughed at them. The boys vowed to never speak Cree again and learned English. The kids have beeen brainwashed into disregarding their culture, so this would be called a success by the original planners who tried to wipe out the native culture. It's going to be a tough haul to hang on to and preserve their culture but a lot still hold it dear. Go to a powow if you want to see some native culture.

[stuck_in_chuk]

The other night while walking home from the bar, I was mugged by a young native man. I had a too much to drink, I admit, and was walking home with my MP3 player on. I didn't notice the guy until he was about 20 feet away. I stepped aside to avoid walking into him, and he walked up and got right in my face. He took my glasses and started telling me that I should respect his culture. I just wanted my glasses back. He demanded that I give him my MP3 player and he'd give me my glasses. Told me that I was white and had everything, and he had nothing. I pointed out that the glasses wouldn't do him any good, and he punched me in the face. I fell down, and decided to give him what he wanted. I'm not much of a fighter, especially when drunk, on the ground and unable to see. Handed over the MP3 and asked for my glasses. He threatened me some more and demanded my money. Since I didn't have much, I gave it to him. He threatened me a bit more, but gave me my glasses back and let me go. Went back to the bar and called the cops, who found him right away and were able to return my property. Other than a black eye, everything turned out fine for me.

I've been thinking about the incident quite a few times over the past few days, and still can't figure out how I am disrespecting someones culture by walking home. I didn't say anything to him. When he called me a "f---in' white", I don't believe he was speaking about me directly - he was speaking about all whites. I would have to say, that appears to be a racist attitude. He tried to justify stealing my stuff based on past injustices against his people. I'm not denying the very real injustices of the past, and I am not opposed to compensation for aboriginals for taking their land and livelihood. But I'm sorry, punching me in the face and taking my stuff is robbery, not compensation.

I'm not saying this to generalize against an ethnic group. This guy was acting on his own. But, I was a target because I am white. I am opposed to racism - whether the Tim Horton's "No Drunken Indians" sign, or the vandalism of the Algonquin Cultural Centre on Aboriginal Day, or blaming all members of a race for the injustices of the past.

Vulcan - I do have a question for you, and I ask this honestly. You have said that a good way to experience aboriginal culture is to attend a powwow. That is something that I have thought about attending in the past. But I need to know - would I be welcome at such an event?

[Vulcan]

That's a crazy bad experience, stuck- in-chuck. There are some nasty people out there.

I haven't been to a pow wow for a while but when I went I never caused any problems and never got any problems. I believe there is a no drinking policy in effect. Some whites even take part and when I went I knew some of the native people. I kind of found it a little boring because I didn't really understand what was going on but the dancing and singing can be a little hypnotic. I think it's kind of an intutive thing that our culture has a hard time deciphering without getting into their religion. I never went down that road.

any natives out there who can give a better answer?

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Go to a powow if you want to see some native culture.

I've been. Like I said, my sister in law is big on native culture, as are my neice and nephew. A few kids are taking interest, but I think that has more to do with parents instilling that into them.