Gas Prices

[Ironhorse]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

For the most part you are right. But things are more spread out in NA. Especially in Western Canada. Europe is pretty compact in comparison. 100km would be a huge trip in Europe. Over here it is an hours drive.

Yup, good point. All of the UK fits between Edmonton and Montana.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

For the most part you are right. But things are more spread out in NA. Especially in Western Canada. Europe is pretty compact in comparison. 100km would be a huge trip in Europe. Over here it is an hours drive.

I realize that, but how does that affect the need to own a large vehicle? A small or mid-size car is pefectly capable of driving long distances on a highway.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

I understand what you are getting at Bingo but I think the reasons for produce getting more expensive are far more realistic. You wont read any reports about how a grape picker got kidnapped so therefore grapes are going up in price.

I don't think produce prices are quite as easily swayed as gas prices are, they are certainly far less prone to pice increases due to speculation.

Don't let a kidnapping story fool you into thinking that is the driver in this .. gasoline stocks are depleted and the feed cost of gasoline (Oil) is trading at $65 (US/barrel).

That's expensive stuff.

Take today for an example ... Chavez announces that he's taking their oil off the market and Oil is down $1.22 as we speak ... so not every alarming story has a move up in commodity price.

Gas stocks are down, and with summer driving right around the corner it will go up.

But I don't think a kidnapping story is the principal driver in this.

Remember in the 80's and early 90's Oil was trading at $18 and gas was $.39/litre and nobody was complaining about collusion then though their was a pretty similar price spread between stations.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I realize that, but how does that affect the need to own a large vehicle? A small or mid-size car is pefectly capable of driving long distances on a highway.

I was thinking that exact same thing. I guess fuel prices would need to double before people think twice about buying the little, fuel efficient car vs the SUV. People will complain about the cost of fuel. But they don't want to give up horse power or comfort. Untill it really hurts in the pocket book why would people change?

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

So does the May long weekend actually put severe strain on the oil refineries? Of course not. They fully expect and anticipate the boom.

Most refineries run at near capacity when it comes to production. An increase in demand can't be remedied by ole Bob putting in an extra couple hours in at work.

[Ayrahb]

I was doing some research on the EPA website today and found that the gas for my current car averages US$ 2500 annually. If I managed to fix my 3-cylinder Chev Sprint, I could save up to US$1400.

I don't think I need any more convincing than that.

[Thunderball]

A large amount of our problem in Canada is that at least 25% of our costs are pure tax... provincial excise (9c), federal excise (10c), GST and PST (where applicable). Since the last two are a percentage, they inflate the price as it increases. The real price of refined and delivered gas with profit margin right now is about 80 cents a litre.

ie:
if gasoline is supposed to be $0.50/L, excise makes it $0.69, and the STs make it $0.72/L (or $0.75/L)
if gasoline is supposed to be $1/L, excise makes it $1.19, and the STs make it $1.25 (or $1.31)
if gasoline is supposed to be $2/L, excise makes it $2.38 and the STs make it $2.50 (or $2.72!)
(assuming 6% PST)

Now, figure a 50L tank...
50c/L = $25 Excise makes that $34.50, GST makes it $36.00
$1/L = $50 Excise makes that $59.50, GST makes it $62.50
$2/L = $100 Excise makes that $119.00, GST makes it 125.00

Today's price (about $1.05/L)
$.80 = $40, Excise makes that $49.50, GST makes it $52.50

Pretty gross, eh? Makes you proud to be Canadian.

If our government decided to stop taxing the hell out of fuel, the result would be slightly more palatable prices.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

Weather definitely effects the price.
ie. summer is coming, so watch it go from $1 now to $1.19 in a month or so to ??? during the holiday months.
The $1 now is only to ease you into it. The real butt raping has yet to come.

Watch the increase when the May long weekend comes. It's a tradition for gas companies to increase their prices just before every long weekend. Buy your gas on a Tuesday to beat the weekend increase

[Claeren]

If our government decided to stop taxing the hell out of fuel, the result would be slightly more palatable prices.

^ Or it would result in higher consumption which would drive up prices,

And also likely result in more road congestion (both from more driving & cars and from less revenue to build roads) which would increase your gas use as well, thus driving up the cost to drive.


I bet the cost of gas PER CAPITA is very similiar in Europe as it is in the United States even though the absolute cost at the pump is much much higher in Europe. Likewise in Canada, we pay more per litre than American's but we all tend to drive slightly smaller cars (If every Accord they sell, we sell a Civic, etc) and thus likely travel further on that litre than they do.

Gas taxes are one of the best taxes we have. A LOT better than income taxes!!



Claeren.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Claeren

^ Or it would result in higher consumption which would drive up prices,

And also likely result in more road congestion (both from more driving & cars and from less revenue to build roads) which would increase your gas use as well, thus driving up the cost to drive.


I bet the cost of gas PER CAPITA is very similiar in Europe as it is in the United States even though the absolute cost at the pump is much much higher in Europe. Likewise in Canada, we pay more per litre than American's but we all tend to drive slightly smaller cars (If every Accord they sell, we sell a Civic, etc) and thus likely travel further on that litre than they do.

Gas taxes are one of the best taxes we have. A LOT better than income taxes!!



Claeren.

In a perfect world, you'd be correct. I don't think you would find that people drive less from 1997 to now, despite gas costing twice as much. What you end up with is an inflationary measure. It is similar to cigarettes and alcohol (although high cigarette prices have proven to be somewhat effective in discouraging would-be addicts), where you have a market that will pay dearly to get what they want. Public transit is successful to a degree, but the majority of North Americans drive to go where they need and want to go. This is something people will pay nearly any price for.

What you end up with, as with sin taxes, is people spending more money on their "requirement", and less money for other, more essential requirements. At least with sin taxes, the government claims to be doing so for the "common good."

My point is, a 25% discount in the cost of fuel won't necessarily create more drivers, but will make positive effects for those saving the money, perhaps even alloting them enough savings to replace their car with a newer and more efficient model.

As for fuel taxes going to road construction... all the removal of excise taxes would do is eat a piece of the lofty surpluses the province and country have been racking up. There's still plenty of money to go into infrastructure, while saving the average Canadian a good chunk of money. GST and PST from fuel don't go to infrastructure either, but to "general revenue"

[SaskaBushFire]

Just filled up for 107.9 last night and its sitting at 113.9 here in Saskatoon today. For once I got lucky with the gas, usually its the other way around.

[Dynamic]

Still only a buck north of edmonton. But considering that I drive 200kms a day or more this is a huge kick in the balls.

[Flames in 07]

Gas marketers have done it to themselves. On every street corner in Canada you have two gas stations that have what:

A massive sign with massive numbers showing the price for one gasoline product.

The result is a hyper sensitive population, fueled by dumb, lazy and irresponsible media and what do you have? Many views on this thread.

For Crude:
There is definately a 'risk premium' in crude. But speculators are a small part of it, and in fact they will bring the price down about as often as they move it up. The reality is that some people need oil or gas for their business, for that reason they are ok with paying a premium so long as they can secure product. Kind of acts like bying business insurance. So if they pay 5% over a 'market' price that is OK because if supply starts to go away, all is good they get their oil. Plus the strongest human motivation is fear, if you are scared about the security of supply you buy buy buy!!! Ironic that oil companies are to blame but it is buyers that run up the price beyond fundamentals.

Retail Gasoline Prices:
They generally move with crude, and yes they do rise with crude faster than they tail off. But some other items are hilarious. The best one is that gas prices always skyrocket before a long weekend. That is false, at least a few years ago anyway, I found that they went down in the 5 days leading up to a long weekend as much as they went up. Further, even if they did go up so what? It's supply and demand fundamentals, demand goes up, so does price. Nobody complains about hotel prices going up over the weekend in vegas, Air Canada increasing ticket prices as they run out of seats on a plane, or coffee beans prices going up as Starbucks starts to take over the world.

Lastly if there was callusion it would have been found. Every politician knows they are immortal if they could have unearthed that one. Oil companies get full cavity searches and not a shred of evidence has yet to be found, again, Westjet and AC tie their prices together and nobody cares about that.

We can't say out of one side of our mouth that we need to conserve and be more efficient and then out of the other demand cheap gas. Long term high prices will force people to switch which is good for society ... we can't have it both ways.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by SaskaBushFire

Just filled up for 107.9 last night and its sitting at 113.9 here in Saskatoon today. For once I got lucky with the gas, usually its the other way around.

I filled up this evening for 98 cents a litre

[Gugstanley]

I filled up today for $2.85 a gallon. Too tired to convert to litres

[Claeren]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

In a perfect world, you'd be correct. I don't think you would find that people drive less from 1997 to now, despite gas costing twice as much. What you end up with is an inflationary measure. It is similar to cigarettes and alcohol (although high cigarette prices have proven to be somewhat effective in discouraging would-be addicts), where you have a market that will pay dearly to get what they want. Public transit is successful to a degree, but the majority of North Americans drive to go where they need and want to go. This is something people will pay nearly any price for.

What you end up with, as with sin taxes, is people spending more money on their "requirement", and less money for other, more essential requirements. At least with sin taxes, the government claims to be doing so for the "common good."

My point is, a 25% discount in the cost of fuel won't necessarily create more drivers, but will make positive effects for those saving the money, perhaps even alloting them enough savings to replace their car with a newer and more efficient model.

As for fuel taxes going to road construction... all the removal of excise taxes would do is eat a piece of the lofty surpluses the province and country have been racking up. There's still plenty of money to go into infrastructure, while saving the average Canadian a good chunk of money. GST and PST from fuel don't go to infrastructure either, but to "general revenue"

It is interesting to me that despite your thoughts on the matter:

Gas Prices (and taxes):
America < Canada < Europe

Transit ridership:
America < Canada < Europe

Total fuel usage/capita (An educated guess in this case):
America < Canada < Europe



It seems to me that people in America are more willing to pay for gas regarldess of fluctuations than Europeans (with Canadians in the middle) NOT because it is a choice but because their cities have been SO poorly planned and made dependent upon automobile usage that they have no alternative.

As Canadian's we should not be demanding 5c or 10c less tax per litre, we should be demanding better designed cities, better designed communities, better transit, and higher densities.

Gas dependence is not a price issue, it is a lifestyle issue. And high gas use is NOT a sustainable lifestyle choice when extended out another generation or two.




Claeren.


PS:

I filled up today for $2.85 a gallon. Too tired to convert to litres

I believe that is about 80c/litre (CDN$).

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by Gugstanley

I filled up today for $2.85 a gallon. Too tired to convert to litres

Yeah, dividing by 3.8 can be exhausting...

[redforever]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

I understand what you are getting at Bingo but I think the reasons for produce getting more expensive are far more realistic. You wont read any reports about how a grape picker got kidnapped so therefore grapes are going up in price.

I don't think produce prices are quite as easily swayed as gas prices are, they are certainly far less prone to pice increases due to speculation.

Unfortunately, until grapes prove to be a reliable source of energy, you wont see grape prices rise and drop with outside influences like kidnappings. Grapes are a commodity, that if in short supply, you switch to another fruit to eat. The only main thing that a shortage of grapes will affect is the price of wine.

You are not talking in the same ball field when you try to compare price of grapes to energy prices. Grapes are not a necessity, on the other hand, pretty hard to argue that some form of energy is not a necessity in this transient world of ours.

[DuffMan]

It's in the 1.25 in vancouver apparently.

So this new hike is because of "Unrest in oil-rich Nigeria. Tensions in the Middle East"
Why don;'t they just say they're raising prices because the sky is blue.
I'm pretty sure there has been unrest in Nigeria on a daily basis for about 50 years straight, and there is tension in the ME, really? I didn;t notice.

[Dion]

It's all a plot by the Global Warming Nazi's.

They want us to all stop driving.