Another public multiple shooting

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

It's not simple enough for me, although I am kind of simple myself.

You appear to be saying that people get whacked at roughly the same rate in both countries, which is simply not true.

In 2005, 658 people were murdered in Canada, while nearly 17000 people were murdered in the States. The ratio is not the same. It's not even close.

The numbers weren't meant to be accurate. I was trying to show that there will inevitably be a lot more of these events in the US than Canada based on sheer numbers alone. Going back, I didn't explain that very well.

[SpitFire40]

They really need to restrict gun sales completely outside of law enforcement and military there really is no need to sell them... Do people honestly need to hunt?

I'm sure it's a great hobby, and something to be passionate about but is it a necessity?

If I were to hunt, i'd learn to use a Bow... Keep the playing field a little more even then a shot from 100 yards away...

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by SpitFire40

They really need to restrict gun sales completely outside of law enforcement and military there really is no need to sell them... Do people honestly need to hunt?

I'm sure it's a great hobby, and something to be passionate about but is it a necessity?

If I were to hunt, i'd learn to use a Bow... Keep the playing field a little more even then a shot from 100 yards away...

I think even God would have a tough time hitting a duck or pheasant with a bow. Of course, you could always argue that hunting shotguns don't need to be that powerful.

[SpitFire40]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

I think even God would have a tough time hitting a duck or pheasant with a bow. Of course, you could always argue that hunting shotguns don't need to be that powerful.

Sling shot?

*Grasping at straws now*

Now that I think of it, handguns are the problem because they're so compact. Seriously, is there ANY use at all for anyone to own one of these?

[worth]

I think you're being a little short sighted SpitFire. There isn't the "need" for a lot of things. But we're supposed to live in a relativley free country.

http://www.ipsc.org/

And you can join the IPSC in Calgary. They regularly shoot at The Shooting Edge.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by SpitFire40

Sling shot?

*Grasping at straws now*

Now that I think of it, handguns are the problem because they're so compact. Seriously, is there ANY use at all for anyone to own one of these?

Unless you target shoot at a shooting gallery for fun, nope.

Of course, there's no reason why people have to own them, these places could have special licenses and rent them out on premises.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

The numbers weren't meant to be accurate. I was trying to show that there will inevitably be a lot more of these events in the US than Canada based on sheer numbers alone. Going back, I didn't explain that very well.

I realize that there will inevitably be more of these events because they have 10 times as many people, but you have made the suggestion more than once that things are the same here and there, but they just have more people so the numbers are higher. It's not true.

I'm not saying they are a bunch of brutes, but there clearly is a difference. It is a more violent society.

[socalwingfan]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I'm not saying they are a bunch of brutes, but there clearly is a difference. It is a more violent society.

### - if I'm out walking my dog here and a car load of dudes slow drive by me - I'm looking at the ground and minding my business - same thing happens in Calgary and I laugh at them.

[FireFly]

I took a fantastic course comparing American and Canadian culture and this is one of the things we discussed. If you ever get a chance Matt, Canadian Studies 333 I think is what it is. Gives good insight on the (believe it or not) growing differences between Canadian and American culture and why they're more likely to shoot others than Canadians.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I realize that there will inevitably be more of these events because they have 10 times as many people, but you have made the suggestion more than once that things are the same here and there, but they just have more people so the numbers are higher. It's not true.

I'm not saying they are a bunch of brutes, but there clearly is a difference. It is a more violent society.

Yeah, I didn't write that very well. But anyway, its essentially the same society, inherently no more or less violent. The difference lies in the histories and ethnic makeups of individual states (and provinces). (I am not saying crimes are committed only by ethnic minorities, far from... what I am inferring is that a lot of crime is caused by the clash of ethnicites, including caucasians).

For example, why are Saskatchewan and Manitoba the provinces with the highest crime levels? To oversimplify, its the clash between caucasians and aboriginals. The places with the highest homocide rates in Canada are the Territories. Nunavut has a staggering 10.8/100k (over twice the American average), Yukon with 6.5/100k and NWT with a more normal 2.4/100k.

Another example, the homocide rate in Denver is 3.0/100k, Regina's is 5.0/100k, Winnipeg's is 4.9/100k, Abbotsford is 4.4/100k and Edmonton's is 3.4/100k (2004).

Why are Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver doing better comparatively? They take in a lot of immigrants, so that theory must be bunk, right?

Well, it is and it isn't. Like I said, its not like immgrants come here and decide to commit crime. Most of it is gang related with groups of different ethnicities, especially if there is an "Us vs. Them" mentality. In Canada, no one ethnic group is more maligned than the First Nations, and they have a disproportionate amount of criminal offenses. In the US, there are significant arguments that African Americans are still maligned by the caucasian majority, and again are a source of disproportionate crime. Americans also believe in having one society "we are all Americans", and that likely causes strife in itself.

I'm not saying this is why, but its a theory.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I took a fantastic course comparing American and Canadian culture and this is one of the things we discussed. If you ever get a chance Matt, Canadian Studies 333 I think is what it is. Gives good insight on the (believe it or not) growing differences between Canadian and American culture and why they're more likely to shoot others than Canadians.

They are definitely different to an extent. But when you cut through some superficialities, Canadians have more in common with Americans than they do with Britons or even Australians and New Zealanders. Much of this media related, but also due to geography, history and economics.

Have you read "The Nine Nations of North America?" While a little flawed, it brings up a good point that similarities run more North-South, than East-West. Are Albertans like Carolinans, Floridians or New Yorkers? Nope. But quite similar to Montanans, Coloradians and some of the more Liberal parts of Texas, like Austin. The thing is, no Canadian province has much in common with the SE US, which a source of a lot of the problems in the US. You've taken Poli Sci with me, Heather, and that 521 course showed it off quite well, the regions of Canada are quite different too. Especially Quebec vis-a-vis anyone, and Alberta v. Atlantic Canada.

Essentially, its all relative.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by worth

Perhaps if one of the kids in the VT shooting was allowed to carry a legal concealed weapon,

"If one of the kids had a handgun this might not have been so bad". I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but that is what you are saying.

Allowing college kids to carry guns on campus would lead to a lot more than 32 deaths. College kids are crazy. They drink a lot, take drugs, get dumped by their girlfriends, cheat on their boyfriends, suffer from a lot of stress, and to top it all off, half of them are still teenagers. They'd be killing each other all the time if they were allowed to walk around with guns in their backpack.

I don't care how long Freshman Phil was in the boyscouts or how old he was when Pappy taught him how to shoot bottles, but when he learns his gal has been nailing the res floor supervisor for half a semester, he's going to be kind of pissed off. Throw in a failed chem test,a couple Keystones, some Jagermeister and a Smith & Wesson, you just know someone is going to get whacked.

This is a terrible tragedy, but the odds of something like this happening are extremely small. Preparing for it by letting some students carry guns is way overboard and would lead to a lot more trouble than it would prevent.

It'd be like visiting New York and wearing a motorcycle helmet the whole time because someone might drop a penny off the Empire State Building. It's too much, and it would ruin the experience.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

They are definitely different to an extent. But when you cut through some superficialities, Canadians have more in common with Americans than they do with Britons or even Australians and New Zealanders. Much of this media related, but also due to geography, history and economics.

Have you read "The Nine Nations of North America?" While a little flawed, it brings up a good point that similarities run more North-South, than East-West. Are Albertans like Carolinans, Floridians or New Yorkers? Nope. But quite similar to Montanans, Coloradians and some of the more Liberal parts of Texas, like Austin. The thing is, no Canadian province has much in common with the SE US, which a source of a lot of the problems in the US. You've taken Poli Sci with me, Heather, and that 521 course showed it off quite well, the regions of Canada are quite different too. Especially Quebec vis-a-vis anyone, and Alberta v. Atlantic Canada.

Essentially, its all relative.

You should read Fire and Ice. You're right, differences are east/west, not north/south, however, there are still marked differences north/south as well. The guy did an amazing survey across all regions in both Canada and the US and compared the results. Really, quite fascinating. Generalities aside, the two countries are actually moving apart in their social values.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by SpitFire40

They really need to restrict gun sales completely outside of law enforcement and military there really is no need to sell them... Do people honestly need to hunt?

I'm sure it's a great hobby, and something to be passionate about but is it a necessity?

If I were to hunt, i'd learn to use a Bow... Keep the playing field a little more even then a shot from 100 yards away...

Why should my rights as a law-abiding citizen be fringed upon by what a criminal does?

Your post reeks of so much ignorance, its pathetic.

The whole personality of a criminal is to 'disobey' the law. No matter how many gun laws or bans you impose, nothing will stop him from acquiring a gun if he so chooses.

I agree with gun laws to a certain extend...I think all gun sales should be regulated, and everyone that buys a gun should be checked out to make sure he doesn't have a criminal record. But than again, no criminal with a rap sheet is going to go buy a gun at the local gun-shop if he knows they will check him out.

Also, if you own a handgun, and have a concealed carry permit, you should be required to have proper training for that handgun.

You can't just ban guns and think crime will go away. Especially in the US, where an open border with Mexico already makes it easier to bring illegal firearms into the country.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Here is what I don't get...maybe someone who is pro-gun can explain it to me...if responsible gun ownership can help keep the public safe...why haven't incidents like these been prevented more often (or at all) by civilians with guns?

[Azure]

Responsible gun-ownership by me, will keep me safe.

If you own a gun, and you are responsible and teach your family firearms safety, you will keep them safe as well.

Its debatable whether or not students carrying on campus would have prevented more people from being killed...unless you have someone who has been trained very well. Usually you will not find such an individual amongst a civilian population like VT.

Rather than letting the kids carry on campus, I would rather the school impose better security.

Like Rouge said, college kids aren't exactly the most responsible people on the planet. And yes I know I am stereotyping when I say that.

[Flash Walken]

I really don't think it's a stretch in logic to associate prevalence of guns and gun violence.

I imagine if there was a prevalence of cross bows, you'd see more long crossbow related deaths.

Saturating everyone with weapons really isn't the answer, nor is restricting weapons to those only in positions of authority. It's a tricky balance.

I see zero logical reasoning behind adding more guns to this equation though.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by SpitFire40

They really need to restrict gun sales completely outside of law enforcement and military there really is no need to sell them... Do people honestly need to hunt?

I'm sure it's a great hobby, and something to be passionate about but is it a necessity?

If I were to hunt, i'd learn to use a Bow... Keep the playing field a little more even then a shot from 100 yards away...

Not everyone has a nice cushy office job that buys lots of groceries.

Try not to assume that everyone in the world grows up in your exact situation.

Hunting is more vital to wildlife management than you can possibly imagine as well.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I took a fantastic course comparing American and Canadian culture and this is one of the things we discussed. If you ever get a chance Matt, Canadian Studies 333 I think is what it is. Gives good insight on the (believe it or not) growing differences between Canadian and American culture and why they're more likely to shoot others than Canadians.

Well duh....we'd have to drive to Canada to shoot Canadians.

[ZDogg]

Does anyone else think climate has anything to do with the murder rate differences between Canada and the US?? I remember seeing something about a sharp drop off of murders when it gets really cold outside. Just like everyone else the Murderers don't want to leave their house during cold streaks.

It would be interesting to compare the rates for June - Sept between Canada and the US.