Liberals allege ex-MP was paid off to give his riding to Day

[Lurch]

When a corrupt body alleges corruption, one has to question the validity of the source.

It is fascinating how the Liberals magically found this, seven years after the fact, right when they are trying to build momentum. If there is independent proof of such, then yes, Day should resign immediately, and all involved should be prosecuted.

If all we have is the word of the Liberals themselves, then I have a very difficult time trusting it.

It's not the word of the Liberals, there is a memo/fax and Hart isn't even denying he took money. He's saying it was to cover "financial losses" associated with stepping down. I doubt Day will even dispute that Hart was paid - my guess is he will say it was with party not public funds, which is the real issue.

"Seven years ago, when my resignation was accepted by the party, I was asked to provide an estimate of my financial losses,'' Hart continued.
"Seven years ago, my desire was to protect my staff from job losses.
"Seven years ago, my desire was to protect my family until I found work. I was just a grassroots guy, not independently wealthy and trying to do the right thing.''

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

When a corrupt body alleges corruption, one has to question the validity of the source.

It is fascinating how the Liberals magically found this, seven years after the fact, right when they are trying to build momentum. If there is independent proof of such, then yes, Day should resign immediately, and all involved should be prosecuted.

If all we have is the word of the Liberals themselves, then I have a very difficult time trusting it.

As long as people are willing to admit that the same standards apply, that is all I hope for.

I don't thing there is any question that this isn't as large an issue as the sponsorship scandle, in the overall scheme of things. But as you say, "When a corrupt body alleges corruption, one has to question the validity of the source." Perhaps some still members remaining from the Alliance whose credibilty needs to be questioned.

Maybe it is my aging, but I trust very few polititians anymore, and haven't "believed" in a party in years. Every election feels like choosing or rooting for the least evil. The Liberals earned my distrust. The CPC had impressed me so far, but things like this (and a number of other) make me reaffirm why no party can be trusted.

Stockwell day has got to go. I would have been impressed if Anders was given his walking papers by the CPC instead of the way that went down.

I would like to see this minority parliament continue. I don't think a new election will resolve anything, and will only be a waste of money, time and opportunity for all concerned.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Lurch

It's not the word of the Liberals, there is a memo/fax and Hart isn't even denying he took money. He's saying it was to cover "financial losses" associated with stepping down. I doubt Day will even dispute that Hart was paid - my guess is he will say it was with party not public funds, which is the real issue.

No, the real issue is that an MP was paid to vacate his seat. Its illegal, and it makes no difference where the money comes from. If Day paid him directly does it make it any better?

The fact is that the CPC has been throwing these corruption allegations around for years now, and they are no better. Its their turn to eat crow!

[Calgaryborn]

It isn't illegal to receive money for stepping down from office if
you were not being paid to step down. There is no doubt this guy
received money. This isn't denied by anyone. What could make
this illegal is if these documents indicate the money was for stepping
down rather than severance pay.

If I was the RCMP I would be concerned about the fact that the source
was anonymous. This smells a little bit like that Dan Rather story during their last Presidential election. Also, I think it is a little low brow of the Liberals to attack the Conservatives in this way. I'm sure any Liberal
candidate who has stepped down for the party has been compensated well for the jester and knew how much before he/she resigned. Certainly the intent of the law was to keep corporations, private individuals or even
opposing parties from influencing politicians with money. Regardless of these memos Hart did what he did for his party. Compensation was
the accepted norm in these cases and if the Liberals haven't found anything other then perhaps a wrong choice of words used in a memo.
It's like having a sign at a little league bake sale selling cookies for 3$ a dozen when the sign should read: "a recommended donation of 3$".

[Slava]

Well, you could be right Calgaryborn. The memo allegedly says something along the lines of the money being the only way that he would consider stepping down though. In that case, its pretty obvious that its not just a coincidental helping hand for a guy who fell on his sword for the party....its a guy who sells his right to the seat for the incoming leader.

Maybe the Liberals do this all the time, I have no idea. But if you just ran a law and order campaign, then you have to keep your nose clean.

[FireFly]

Maybe the Conservatives were not aware of the tactics of the Alliance Party?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Maybe the Conservatives were not aware of the tactics of the Alliance Party?

Yeah, with all the staff turnover...

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Slava

Yeah, with all the staff turnover...

Well perhaps it was just between Stockwell and the other dude. Why would Harper and/or the rest of any of them need to know about it?

Regardless, a $50,000 buyouy is not anywhere near on the same scale as a $300 million dollar scandal, as well as a $2 billion gun registry, etc. I'm not saying what Day did was right... he should've taken Anders' seat frankly, I'm just saying let's put this into perspective.

[Ford Prefect]

I suppose this incident will breakdown into a bunch of partisan bickering, in the midst of which the truth will be lost and looking after the business of governing the nation will be shuttled aside in the interest of a good old pissing match between tweedle dumb and tweedle dumber. Sounds like Canadian politics as usual to me.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Well perhaps it was just between Stockwell and the other dude. Why would Harper and/or the rest of any of them need to know about it?

Regardless, a $50,000 buyouy is not anywhere near on the same scale as a $300 million dollar scandal, as well as a $2 billion gun registry, etc. I'm not saying what Day did was right... he should've taken Anders' seat frankly, I'm just saying let's put this into perspective.

I hate to say this (because I don't want to try to defend this), but the gun registry is hardly a scandal. It was law; no matter whether you agree or disagree, it was above board. It was expensive, but just a little more than the $700 Million to buy some support in Quebec this week

As far as the ad scandal, they have prosecuted people involved. Why will CPC supporters not acknowledge this?

Harper didn't necessarily know about this, but its a party problem. When Paul Martin said he knew nothing of the ad scandal no one gave him the benefit of the doubt, and it cost him the election. If the distinction here is the amount of money, then maybe Hart should've held out a little longer!

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Slava

I hate to say this (because I don't want to try to defend this), but the gun registry is hardly a scandal. It was law; no matter whether you agree or disagree, it was above board. It was expensive, but just a little more than the $700 Million to buy some support in Quebec this week

As far as the ad scandal, they have prosecuted people involved. Why will CPC supporters not acknowledge this?

Harper didn't necessarily know about this, but its a party problem. When Paul Martin said he knew nothing of the ad scandal no one gave him the benefit of the doubt, and it cost him the election. If the distinction here is the amount of money, then maybe Hart should've held out a little longer!

I don't mean it was a scandal, more a $2 Billion waste of money they said would only cost $2 million. Because a 1000% cost overrun isn't a bit excessive? Total mismanagement that should not be allowed.

[kipperfan]

I want to diverge from the issue slightly.....so the Libs(and their supporters it seems) are going to try and make a big deal of this, an event which doesnt concern the party leader, an event which happened 7 years ago and an event that took place within another political party. So my question is where does it end......If I find some dirt on a current liberal party member from 35 years ago is that valid to bring into the public forum and use against him and his party as a whole?

Like I mentioned before in this thread, and like Snakeye echoed as well....you have to be pretty bloody naive to think the Libs didnt know about this for a long time, perhaps even the full seven years....and were just waiting to pull the proverbial rabbit from the hat whenever they felt they needed a shot in the arm....garbage politics...I expect we will be seeing alot more of this in the near future.

I figure since the Libs and their supporters want to make irrational jumps to judgment with little to no facts...I will too. I believe Stephen Dion was a part of the sponsorship scandal, in fact I think he played an intergal role......jeez.....nice guy you have running your party Libs.

Thats makes about as much sense as attempting to use this 7 year old incident against the current government.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

I want to diverge from the issue slightly.....so the Libs(and their supporters it seems) are going to try and make a big deal of this, an event which doesnt concern the party leader, an event which happened 7 years ago and an event that took place within another political party. So my question is where does it end......If I find some dirt on a current liberal party member from 35 years ago is that valid to bring into the public forum and use against him and his party as a whole?

Sure, why not. Does corruption have a shelf life? Is it ok if to you if it has been 7 years? how about 5? what's the time for a free pass?

As already pointed out, the sponsership scandal with old too and it was correctly followed up on as it should have been. Why shouldn't this?

Like I mentioned before in this thread, and like Snakeye echoed as well....you have to be pretty bloody naive to think the Libs didnt know about this for a long time, perhaps even the full seven years....and were just waiting to pull the proverbial rabbit from the hat whenever they felt they needed a shot in the arm....garbage politics...I expect we will be seeing alot more of this in the near future.

maybe...
The politicians are playing politics
what's your point?
does that change the actions of Day if they're proven true?

I figure since the Libs and their supporters want to make irrational jumps to judgment with little to no facts...I will too. I believe Stephen Dion was a part of the sponsorship scandal, in fact I think he played an intergal role......jeez.....nice guy you have running your party Libs.

Thats makes about as much sense as attempting to use this 7 year old incident against the current government.

It's a 7 year old incident that involves a member of the current government.
Should it involve the whole party? IMO, no, just those who were involved.
It shouldn't go away because it's 7 years old.

And you might as well do that with Dion, most CPC supporters did it with Martin. If truth or relevence hasn't mattered before, why start now?

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

It's a 7 year old incident that involves a member of the current government.
Should it involve the whole party? IMO, no, just those who were involved.
It shouldn't go away because it's 7 years old.

And you might as well do that with Dion, most CPC supporters did it with Martin. If truth or relevence hasn't mattered before, why start now?

Part of the concerns CP supporters had with Martin's involvement, or lack thereof in the sponsership scandal had to do with the fact that he was the Finance Minister at the time. How exactly does the Finance Minister get to walk away scot free when it's his job to hand out the money? How is it that he didn't know? Whether or not he was a part of it, he didn't ask where the money went. That was his job.

[MarchHare]

Part of the concerns CP supporters had with Martin's involvement, or lack thereof in the sponsership scandal had to do with the fact that he was the Finance Minister at the time. How exactly does the Finance Minister get to walk away scot free when it's his job to hand out the money? How is it that he didn't know? Whether or not he was a part of it, he didn't ask where the money went. That was his job.

No, that's not his job. Making sure that government money is spent appropriately is the job of the Auditor General, and in the case of the sponsorship scandal, she did find out about it (albeit too late).

Imagine parliament as being a corporation. The Finance Minister is the CFO of that corporation. It's his duty to set the budget for the various departments and allocate funds accordingly. What happened with the sponsorship scandal is that the Board of Directors (aka Parliament) approved money to be spent on marketing, then the CEO (aka the PM) approaches some middle manager in marketing and dictates that some of their funding should be given to friends of his in a third-party advertising agency. This was done off-the-record behind the back of the CFO. So how exactly was that the CFO's fault? It's not his job to ensure that money is spent appropriately, that's why they have independent auditors. And remember that the official investigation cleared Martin of any wrong-doing.

Nobody here is suggesting that this current scandal with Stockwell Day is anywhere near as severe as the Sponsorship Scandal, nor is anyone saying that Harper is directly responsible. All we want is for the same standard that many of the Conservative supporters on this forum (and indeed, Harper himself) used to crucify the Liberals to be applied here, lest you all look like a bunch of hypocrites. If you want to contend that Harper should shoulder no responsibility for this, then why were you so quick to chastise Martin over adscam, given that he had no involvement with that?

Frankly, I agree with you that this is a scandal that's seven years old and doesn't involve Harper. I also believe that if Stockwell Day is found guilty of improprieties, he should be brought to justice. Likewise, I believed that the Sponsorship Scandal was a scandal nearly a decade old and those responsible should be brought to justice, but those who were not responsible (such as Paul Martin) should not have been punished for something that occurred behind their backs and beyond their control. If you look at any number of Liberal-bashing threads on this forum, though, you will not find that Conservative supporters applied the same standard of judgement to Adscam that they're now applying to Day's scandal. It's blatant hypocrisy, plain and simple.

[RedHot25]

Great post, MarchHare.

[transplant99]

If you want to contend that Harper should shoulder no responsibility for this, then why were you so quick to chastise Martin over adscam, given that he had no involvement with that

Because Martin, unlike Day, at the time of this alleged impropriety was part of the caucus of the party that was blatently breaking the law. A whole group of them of whom some worked directly under Martin.

I also believe that if Stockwell Day is found guilty of improprieties, he should be brought to justice.

I do too. Much like Chretian was.....ooops.

It's blatant hypocrisy, plain and simple.

If you say so....well except for the fact that the Conservatives aren't the Alliance, and that it is a completely different scenario than what Chretian and his minions had going on.

Day needs to be held accountable for anything he did that broke the law. No doubt about it, and "Conservative" supporters I have read aren't saying anything different.

However, this is no where near what the Fiberal machine had going on for years and years.

[Calgaryborn]

MarchHare

The official investigation didn't clear Martin.so much It just didn't find any
evidence against him. If I remember right they didn't find any evidence
against any member of government. Obviously some guilty parties escaped. The majority of Canadians believe Martin was aware of what was going on and so do I. The Finance minister does get detailed reports of how the money is being spent and what is coming in over/under budget. How could he plan for the next budget without this information? Do you also believe the Gun regestry going over budget was a surprise to the Liberals when the auditor revealed it to the public?

As far as Stockwell Day goes; time will tell.

[Bobblehead]

RCMP will not pursue Stockwell Day investigation. link

CBC's The National is reporting that the RCMP have decided there is no new information contained in documents that the Opposition Liberals discovered in March.