Bush - "Without a Doubt" NY Times Mag.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Bush speaks with God?

Does God answer?

Do they talk over cookies?

[Bingo]

That's it?

"God speaks through me."

That in itself doesn't scare me in the least. It might be arrogant but it certainly doesn't suggest a zealot that is running amock based on religious beliefs.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Hold it. Weren't you one of the people concerned when Kerry said that he would like to have terrorism reduced to "a nuisance"? But having someone say "God speaks through me" is okay. Using the word "nuisance" makes Kerry a bad candidate for President, but a guy who thinks that THE superme being has selected him as His apparatus on earth is okay. Using a poor term during an interview is bad, but admitting to a group of highly religious folks that the Almighty speaks through you is good? Alrighty then.



Come on Bingo, one is substantially worse than the others, especially when you add in the comments from others who have dealt with the President in the Oval office. Bush is not fit to serve with that belief structure.

[Bingo]

Some people believe God speaks through them when they are at their best, or they do good in their in lives, or help others, or make the planet a better place. I know my Grandmother always says my mother (deceased since I was 18) speaks through me from time to time, though I doubt she thinks my mother is fiendishly plotting my every move.

The nuisance comment, though likely a mistake, points to a softening against a very dangerous foe.

The other comment suggests a deeply religious man. Not my kettle of fish to speak that way, but not all that alarming either.

Like I said, if the New York Times guy is dead on right, then I'm worried too, but he has a track record with Bush and that tells me that he only sees one side of it, and has likely exagerated things.

[arsenal]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Oct 20 2004, 04:15 PM
Hold it. Weren't you one of the people concerned when Kerry said that he would like to have terrorism reduced to "a nuisance"? But having someone say "God speaks through me" is okay. Using the word "nuisance" makes Kerry a bad candidate for President, but a guy who thinks that THE superme being has selected him as His apparatus on earth is okay. Using a poor term during an interview is bad, but admitting to a group of highly religious folks that the Almighty speaks through you is good? Alrighty then.



Come on Bingo, one is substantially worse than the others, especially when you add in the comments from others who have dealt with the President in the Oval office. Bush is not fit to serve with that belief structure.

There is another person that I know of, whom says that God speaks through him. He is elected by a small group of people to do God's bidding on earth. He also influences millions of people world wide.

No one thinks he is crazy.

While I personally do not thing that religion and politics do not mix. I have no problem with a political figure that has deep religious beleifs.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by arsenal@Oct 21 2004, 03:40 AM
There is another person that I know of, whom says that God speaks through him. He is elected by a small group of people to do God's bidding on earth. He also influences millions of people world wide.

No one thinks he is crazy.

While I personally do not thing that religion and politics do not mix. I have no problem with a political figure that has deep religious beleifs.

Yeah, and last time I checked the Pope did not have at his disposal enough nuclear weapons to burn the atmosphere off of the planet. The worst he can do is let you hang around a priest and get sodomized. Big difference. One one hand YOU get poked in the kiester, and on the other we ALL get poked in the kiester. Given a choice, I'll let you hand around the priest and take one for the team, thank you very much.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by arsenal@Oct 20 2004, 09:40 PM

No one thinks he is crazy.

I do. Don't I count?

EDIT: Okay, that's a little harsh. I just think he's wrong. The comparison is bogus though. The Pope presumably has lived his life adhering to Christian values. George may believe certain things, but he obviously doesn't live by or make decisions based on actual Christianity. Far as I can tell, the "Bush Doctrine" is the antithesis of Christianity.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Bingo@Oct 21 2004, 02:21 AM
Some people believe God speaks through them when they are at their best, or they do good in their in lives, or help others, or make the planet a better place. I know my Grandmother always says my mother (deceased since I was 18) speaks through me from time to time, though I doubt she thinks my mother is fiendishly plotting my every move.

The nuisance comment, though likely a mistake, points to a softening against a very dangerous foe.

The other comment suggests a deeply religious man. Not my kettle of fish to speak that way, but not all that alarming either.

Like I said, if the New York Times guy is dead on right, then I'm worried too, but he has a track record with Bush and that tells me that he only sees one side of it, and has likely exagerated things.

Bingo, I would never say anything disrespectful about someone's grandmother or their deceased mother, so please don't take this as such. All due respect, but come on, there is a massive difference between your elderly grandmother saying that, and the President of the United States of America saying that God speaks through him. My wife says she sees and hears my father in me from time to time. That is natural as he helped raise me and I mimiced him growing up. I wanted to be just like my dad. There are things that I do that are like my mother too, for all the same reasons. That is likely what your grandmother is refering too and not meaning what Bush was saying. Bush said, "God speaks through me." I don't care who you are, you say that and you deserve to be locked up.

No sane person admits that they coverse with the Almighty. Seriously, if you came home one day and Bingles looked you in the eye and said, "Bingo, God speaks through me," you'd laugh your ass off, and think she was pulling your chain, or you'd check her coffee cup for foreign substances. If those proved false you'd likely have her make an appointment with her doctor and have some blood work done. The President of the United States of America should be held up to an even greater expectation, since he does represent some 280,000,000 people and some 3,500 nuclear missles. If he says "God speaks through me" he should be put on the rack and all his seals checked for leaks. Something is amiss.

[arsenal]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Oct 20 2004, 09:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Oct 20 2004, 09:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-arsenal@Oct 20 2004, 09:40 PM

No one thinks he is crazy.

I do. Don't I count? [/b][/quote]
yes, yes you do.

[RougeUnderoos]

Hey I changed my answer.

[Bingo]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Oct 20 2004, 10:26 PM
No sane person admits that they coverse with the Almighty.

That is an ugly statement if I've seen one.

I'm Catholic, I don't spend as much time at it as I should, but many people do believe they speak to God in prayor, and that is pretty much what Bush has said. You have no right to call devote Christians all over the world insane. No right whatsoever.

First you say Republicans are essentially stupid, and now deeply religious people are essentially insane.

For a guy that bashes conservatives, you sure have taken up a good deal of the intolerance that many on the left dislike about the right.

I would prefer separation of church and state, and I'd prefer Bush not to go over the top with comments like these, but that's a long stretch from proving there is an actual issue at the top of the US government. You have every right to be concerned about what you want to be concerned about, but that alone doesn't make it fact for us stupid, insane conservative voters. If the problem was anything like the author suggests there are more than enough voices in that tightening inner circle that would speak up and fix the problem.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

That is an ugly statement if I've seen one.

I'm Catholic, I don't spend as much time at it as I should, but many people do believe they speak to God in prayor, and that is pretty much what Bush has said. You have no right to call devote Christians all over the world insane. No right whatsoever.

Ugly statement my ass. I'm a Catholic too, and I come from a very religious family (I have a cousin who is a deacon in the church and has had audiences with two popes) including having a brother who is born again. If ANY of them said that "God was speaking through them" I would have them hospitalized and/or committed. Talking to God, as in prayer, is substantially different than "God speaking through me". Actually admitting that you are having "conversations" with God, saying that you are hearing God's voice in response to yours, is borderline behavour as well. Any psychologist would have a field day and have you on medication so quick it would make your head spin.

First you say Republicans are essentially stupid, and now deeply religious people are essentially insane.

Thank you for putting words in my mouth. We were discussing how fear is a driver in this election. I countered with education is key to defeat of fear and then followed that up with the Republicans having done very well in States where educational standards are low. Fear is a great driver in these States and always has been. The racial issue is driven by the same factors. Religion is also driven by fear (be good or you will go to HELL! don't do that God IS watching!). Education combats fear. That was the point. You want to call them stupid, I'm not going to stand in your way.


I would prefer separation of church and state, and I'd prefer Bush not to go over the top with comments like these, but that's a long stretch from proving there is an actual issue at the top of the US government. You have every right to be concerned about what you want to be concerned about, but that alone doesn't make it fact for us stupid, insane conservative voters. If the problem was anything like the author suggests there are more than enough voices in that tightening inner circle that would speak up and fix the problem.

This is the reason it is written into the constitution. This is why the founding fathers had the foresight to put it into the constition. They had lived under systems where religion and state were intertwined and it lead to persecution and a lack of reason in the government. I agree with you whole heartedly that it must be prevented from getting a grip on the government in the US. Is Bush a problem? In many ways yes. Is he mentaly incompetant to do his job? At this point we don't know for certain as, like you said, we have only one documented and conformed comment to indicate a problem. But it is definitely something to keep a close eye on IMO. No one has any right to enforce their religious beliefs on another, and they have even less right to allow them to come into play when being in office serving 280,000,000 people. I think we are in agreement of that, and are in agreementthat we should be aware of the potential issue popping up again and setting alarms off.

[Bingo]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Oct 21 2004, 10:03 AM
That is an ugly statement if I've seen one.

I'm Catholic, I don't spend as much time at it as I should, but many people do believe they speak to God in prayor, and that is pretty much what Bush has said. You have no right to call devote Christians all over the world insane. No right whatsoever.

Ugly statement my ass. I'm a Catholic too, and I come from a very religious family (I have a cousin who is a deacon in the church and has had audiences with two popes) including having a brother who is born again. If ANY of them said that "God was speaking through them" I would have them hospitalized and/or committed. Talking to God, as in prayer, is substantially different than "God speaking through me". Actually admitting that you are having "conversations" with God, saying that you are hearing God's voice in response to yours, is borderline behavour as well. Any psychologist would have a field day and have you on medication so quick it would make your head spin.

First you say Republicans are essentially stupid, and now deeply religious people are essentially insane.

Thank you for putting words in my mouth. We were discussing how fear is a driver in this election. I countered with education is key to defeat of fear and then followed that up with the Republicans having done very well in States where educational standards are low. Fear is a great driver in these States and always has been. The racial issue is driven by the same factors. Religion is also driven by fear (be good or you will go to HELL! don't do that God IS watching!). Education combats fear. That was the point. You want to call them stupid, I'm not going to stand in your way.


I would prefer separation of church and state, and I'd prefer Bush not to go over the top with comments like these, but that's a long stretch from proving there is an actual issue at the top of the US government. You have every right to be concerned about what you want to be concerned about, but that alone doesn't make it fact for us stupid, insane conservative voters. If the problem was anything like the author suggests there are more than enough voices in that tightening inner circle that would speak up and fix the problem.

This is the reason it is written into the constitution. This is why the founding fathers had the foresight to put it into the constition. They had lived under systems where religion and state were intertwined and it lead to persecution and a lack of reason in the government. I agree with you whole heartedly that it must be prevented from getting a grip on the government in the US. Is Bush a problem? In many ways yes. Is he mentaly incompetant to do his job? At this point we don't know for certain as, like you said, we have only one documented and conformed comment to indicate a problem. But it is definitely something to keep a close eye on IMO. No one has any right to enforce their religious beliefs on another, and they have even less right to allow them to come into play when being in office serving 280,000,000 people. I think we are in agreement of that, and are in agreementthat we should be aware of the potential issue popping up again and setting alarms off.

I couldn't care less if your uncle is the pope ... a blanket statement like you made is ugly.

Talking to God is taken as praying to God for most I've ever talked to. None of them are insane.

Words in your mouth? You called people who say they talk to God insane ... I didn't need to help you over that cliff, you jumped.

Other than that I agree ... if it is true, I'm worried too, but the New York Times and this author have a history as being very left. When you are ideologically opposed to a sitting president you may be somewhat slanted in writing an article two weeks before an election.

I think it's fair to say that he stretched things out ... how much? Who knows.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Bingo@Oct 21 2004, 04:21 PM
Talking to God is taken as praying to God for most I've ever talked to. None of them are insane.

Talking TO God is taken as praying. Admitting that "God is speaking through me" is saying that you are the vessle for God's voice and that what you say is really what God says. I have no idea how you can confuse the two? There is a massive difference in the message of the two statements and you know it.

Try being that objective journalist you do so well for CP. You're doing an interview with Darryl Sutter. Consider these two statements about a story you are doing on negotiations with Jarome Iginla. Sutter says, "I talked to ownership." What does that mean? Now he says, "Ownership is speaking through me." What does that mean?

In the first statement, "I talked to ownership", it obviously means that he has had a dialogue with ownership in regards to the negotiations. He is checking in with ownership looking for guidance.

In the second statement, "Ownership is speaking through me", he is saying that he is the man and that ownership have given HIM the right to call the shots and do what he sees fit. Ownership has given control to Sutter to make the deal, he speaks for the club.

Now how does that differ from the topic at hand? Bush is saying that he speaks for the supreme being in the universe, that God is giving him direction as to what he is supposed to do. I want to know how you defend the comment and don't think that he needs some observation and possibly some medication. Man, when you have Pat Robertson a little worried, you're off the freakin' deep end, my friend.

[Flame On]

I think, even worse, that Bush doesn't actually believe that Gods speaking through him. Oh I think he has religion, but I also think he uses it to help with the mid states and people like that. I mean if he really thought god spoke through him, why'd he not come right out against all forms of abortion etc. Why try and stay on the fence and satisfy both sides. I think Carl Rove told him to believe in god.
Another reason I have to believe this is a recent bio of him on PBS (him and Kerry); forget the name and show, that showed how he turned to the reverend who defeated his father early on using very church based messages. Found out what they wanted to hear and used it very successfully in defeating Ann Richards.
IMO

[Bingo]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Oct 21 2004, 10:36 AM
Try being that objective journalist you do so well for CP. You're doing an interview with Darryl Sutter. Consider these two statements about a story you are doing on negotiations with Jarome Iginla. Sutter says, "I talked to ownership." What does that mean? Now he says, "Ownership is speaking through me." What does that mean?

Let you in on a little secret?

I can still be objective and not agree with you ... I know that seems odd to you, but you'll have to believe me it's true.

The only quote you or I found had him saying that to some of the most devotely religious people in North American (the Aimish). To come across more biblical in front of that type of audience isn't really that astonishing to me, nor does it prove a huge underlying religious issue at the White House.

In my opinion it's not something that worries me at this time given what I've read. That can, of course change.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Flame On@Oct 21 2004, 05:02 PM
I think, even worse, that Bush doesn't actually believe that Gods speaking through him. Oh I think he has religion, but I also think he uses it to help with the mid states and people like that. I mean if he really thought god spoke through him, why'd he not come right out against all forms of abortion etc. Why try and stay on the fence and satisfy both sides. I think Carl Rove told him to believe in god.
Another reason I have to believe this is a recent bio of him on PBS (him and Kerry); forget the name and show, that showed how he turned to the reverend who defeated his father early on using very church based messages. Found out what they wanted to hear and used it very successfully in defeating Ann Richards.
IMO

I think GW Bush is pretty sincere about his faith.

Whether or not you think it should be a part of his government is another thing. That's fair debate but there's really no reason to question his sincerity on that front.

There was the story of Bush meeting the leader of an obscure East European country - Moldavia I think or something - and afterwards the two of them going to Bush's White House office for private prayer as they both shared the same branch of faith.

About 70% of Americans in a survey a few months ago said it was important to them that the President be a man of faith. A certain percentage, I think about 30%, said it was critical in their choice for President.

Obviously, if you were to do that survey in Canada or most European countries, the figures would be sharply lower to non-existent.

I'm a typical Canadian. I work with lots of people and I have no idea, with one exception, what their faith is. It surprises me sometimes to attend a funeral and see people I know quite well in the choir!! But religion seems to be a far more secondary issue than it is in the USA.

Cowperson

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Flame On@Oct 21 2004, 05:02 PM
I think, even worse, that Bush doesn't actually believe that Gods speaking through him. Oh I think he has religion, but I also think he uses it to help with the mid states and people like that. I mean if he really thought god spoke through him, why'd he not come right out against all forms of abortion etc. Why try and stay on the fence and satisfy both sides. I think Carl Rove told him to believe in god.
Another reason I have to believe this is a recent bio of him on PBS (him and Kerry); forget the name and show, that showed how he turned to the reverend who defeated his father early on using very church based messages. Found out what they wanted to hear and used it very successfully in defeating Ann Richards.
IMO

As much as I think Karl Rove is the anti-christ and is doing everything he can to destroy America, I do not believe he would convince Bush to take the religious angle like Bush has. I think that Bush DID "find Jesus Christ" when he was talking with Billy Graham. I think Bush firmly believes that he had an event that changed his life and he is better for it. My brother went through the same thing and I see similar things that they say and do. I believe it when Bush says he is a new man and is a religious fellow. I don't see where he does anything that would not lead me to believe otherwise. There is nothing wrong with anyone having religion, as long as it does not interfere with their ability to do their job.

[calculoso]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Oct 21 2004, 10:36 AM
Talking TO God is taken as praying.

(snip)

In the first statement, "I talked to ownership", it obviously means that he has had a dialogue with ownership in regards to the negotiations. He is checking in with ownership looking for guidance.

Did you not just say above: "No sane person admits that they coverse with the Almighty."

Seems that you changed your mind.

I agree that if you want to interpret "God speaks through me" as "when I talk, it's actually God talking", then it is insane. If you want to interpret it as "my decisions and views are based on my faith, and I believe that I am acting how God would want me to act" then it's not much different than all the other religious people out there.

Either way, though, I don't think religion has any place in politics. I wish that the US would just stay away from it.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by calculoso@Oct 21 2004, 12:51 PM


I agree that if you want to interpret "God speaks through me" as "when I talk, it's actually God talking", then it is insane. If you want to interpret it as "my decisions and views are based on my faith, and I believe that I am acting how God would want me to act" then it's not much different than all the other religious people out there.

Exactly. If it's the first one, he's crazy. If it's the second way, then I'm perfectly fine with it.

Unfortunately, I think it's the first one. If it is the second one, then the book must have been upside down when he read it, because he is not acting in a Christian manner at all.