1,000 U.S. troops urge Iraq pull-out

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

Well, its irrelevant because the american's smashed the country up, and like Powell said prior to the decision to go to war, the "Pottery Barn" rule would be the result...

But, I think that its always important to recognize the initial decisions because, hopefully, people (ie the public) will learn from it the next time...

Unfortunately, like K said in Men in Black, "A person is smart. People? People are dumb." so I don't have much the american population

I agree with your first point, I had a lot of respect for Powell but he was part of the reason why America went into this situation with such a **** poor execution of the post conventional war phase. And your right in the second paragraph from the extent that yes people need to learn from it. But the here and now for the troops is not some societal object lesson, but the execution of thier mission. Again, if you put a converse petition in front of the troops you would likely get as many signatures from the other side of the equation, that they should do the upmost to secure the country, secure the safety of the civilian interests and make sure that Iraq had the proper police and military forces in place to carry on so that the American Military could execute a proper phased withdrawl that wouldn't leave Iraq sitting there with thier dicks in thier hands.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Seems kind of dumb to me to ignore what they're saying though. They're not begging to be released from duty out of cowardice... just because you volunteered for the Army doesn't remove your (very legitimate) right to complain. They put their lives on the line every day, I think they've got a right to make a beef if they want.

Your right, and troops do have a right to make a beef, they also have a right to refuse unlawful orders from command authority. Where the line is drawn though is if the complaints are made publically to the detriment of unit or structured moral, or if the complainent refuses to execute what is deemed to be a legal order that puts his unit mates or other national assets in jeopardy.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Your right, and troops do have a right to make a beef, they also have a right to refuse unlawful orders from command authority. Where the line is drawn though is if the complaints are made publically to the detriment of unit or structured moral, or if the complainent refuses to execute what is deemed to be a legal order that puts his unit mates or other national assets in jeopardy.

Sure... though so far it doesn't appear that these soldiers are on the edge of mutiny or desertion. But if the soldiers say things aren't working... and analysts here say things aren't working... then it sounds like things aren't working.

I certainly agree that US soldiers can't just pull out of Iraq, the power vaccuum would be brutal, lots of civil war type stuff would come out. At the same time, I don't see any alternative... the US can hang out there for another 5-6 years and then leave, or they can leave now, but I think the end result will be pretty much the same - an unstable Iraq with poor/no central government control, or worse, a stable central government beholden to/controlled by Iran/Syria.

If the US wants to exit this gracefully and see Iraq work, they're going to have to pull something pretty creative out of their hats.

[CaptainCrunch]

Well any solution is going to be contingent around both security and the rebuilding of the busted infrastructure. And you can't successfully rebuild without a strong security presence on the gound (The argument on why we need to have troops and tanks in Afghanistan).

If the American's pull out without a strong security presence its logical to assume that anything thats been built will be blown up. The civilians will become more bitter because America left them in the lurch (The Vietnam tar baby argument), and regardless you'll have a hot bed for even more angry terrorists.

When your as fully committed as the American's are you just can't pull out without creating even worse problems. Its like kicking a heroin addict out of rehab half way through before they have the coping skills in place to survive.

Ther preference wouldn't be to allow Iran and Syria to gain a power base in Iraq, because in a lot of ways it would be worse then having Saddam in place. Hussein was somewhat containable, you can't use the same levers with Iran and Syria.

George Bush's plan is not a bad idea to inject new troops into Iraq to actually hold the areas that are secured and to try to push the Insurgents out of the crazy areas, and putting a deadline on the Iraqi government is a good idea, but we really don't know what the price is going to be if the Iraqi government can't or won't comply by the requirements to get a security infrastructure in place.

We also know that there is a problem with the American's sending what is basically 6 regiments (18 divisions) of mechanized infantry as the U.S. is pretty well drawn down on thier deployable forces.

Its unlikely that they will create a draft to make up thier losses, and they're in tough on the recruiting side as it is.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by TheDragon

I don't advocate immediately withdrawing from Iraq. Don't get me wrong, that's simply irresponsible, and will do more to undo all the good they've created than anything...

And what good is it that? They came in, uninvited - there weren't there at the invitation of the Iraqi people.

They've hung a few guys, got the videos on youtube for the sicko's who want to watch people die.

They've destroyed the infrastructure of the country - or at least their presence has caused the infrastructure to be destroyed.

An average of 100 people a day are being killed and that average is growing.

Etc., etc. etc.

The soldiers on the ground there are the ones you can judge whether this war is winnable. I think they have reached the conclusion it is not. How can they? Will the Sunni's and *****es decide one day to join hands and sing Kumbuya?

No matter how you spin it Cap'n Crunch about the soldiers who don't share the opinion of those that signed the petition, until I see their petition, I'll go with the evidence that has been presented as being representational.

The sad thing is, and the one thing I agree with you on is that the US can't pull out - basically they're focked.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

I certainly agree that US soldiers can't just pull out of Iraq, the power vaccuum would be brutal, lots of civil war type stuff would come out. At the same time, I don't see any alternative... the US can hang out there for another 5-6 years and then leave, or they can leave now, but I think the end result will be pretty much the same - an unstable Iraq with poor/no central government control, or worse, a stable central government beholden to/controlled by Iran/Syria.

Maybe what Iraq needs is an iron fisted dictator who can keep a lid on things.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Maybe what Iraq needs is an iron fisted dictator who can keep a lid on things.

Exactly, anything that will allow the Americans to withdraw with some sense of grace. This petition looks like another nail in the coffin for funding this war. The American public is growing tired of this and whether they're responsible or not, they'll be gone.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

The sad thing is, and the one thing I agree with you on is that the US can't pull out - basically they're focked.

and how exactly is the US 'focked'?

farmboys from iowa are focked.

iraqi civilians are focked.

the reasons behind the invasion have been doing very good, thank you very much.

a book to read that opened my mind to the motivations going on behind much action in the mideast is 'by way of deception' by victor ostrovsky.

it is stated as bald fact with examples provided that any arab in the region that is too smart, ie. a nuclear scientist that isn't even involved in a weapons program, gets on a list of opportunity and if the mossad in their various dealings find him then they kill him.

there have been many reports in the foreign press that the mossad has been running RAMPANT among the intellgentsia in iraq, killing scientists, teachers etc. and given their history and books written by former agents i'd be shocked as hell if they weren't doing this.

there have been reports in the BBC and everywhere but north american media that special forces of the UK, US, and israel have all been involved in mosque bombings and shooting at police checkpoints.

add to this mercenaries who do not answer to the chain of command, and all the stories in arab press (some of which might actually contain a nugget of truth) of iraqis who find explosives in their cars after being detained by US forces - thus making them 'suicide' bombers...

how many mosque bombings were there before the US invasion?

not many, if any.

the majority of iraqis dying are at the hands of other iraqis but it's important to remember that this country is a playground for the special ops black ops sick twisted world of intelligence agencies who like to spark conflict and stand back.

P2OG - 'stimulating reactions' to provoke someone to attack.

'stimulating reactions' means killing civilians to create terrorists.

how anyone can ignore the previous and current state of iraq combined with all the plans on the books and the huge zionist sway within the US administration, together with long-term stated goals of israeli military planners, and not ask any questions...

i hear bechtel and halliburton are pulling stakes.

have they decided they've made what they can? what do they know that we don't?

[Devils'Advocate]

They are in a catch-22.

I watched a BBC documentry on the weekend on Al-Quaida in Iraq. Al-Quaida is recruiting like crazy BECAUSE of Iraq. They spoke with a failed suicided bomber who said he felt obligated to give his life because "he had to get the foreigners off Muslim land". People are joining the insurgency in droves. Many Muslims feel that it was better to enslaved to Hussein rather than under the occupation of infidels.

So the U.S. should get out, thereby removing the draw to the insurgency and everything will be okey-dokey. Well, should they leave, civil war will erupt where the most likely outcome is that Iran will control Iraq, if not politically, then by influence of the clerics. The wealth and power of those that hate the west will grow significantly.

Damned if they do. Damned if they don't. Taking out Saddam Hussein will likely be seen as the biggest international affairs disaster in the history of the United States.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Damned if they do. Damned if they don't. Taking out Saddam Hussein will likely be seen as the biggest international affairs disaster in the history of the United States.

it's the biggest hit to the reputation and safety of the american PEOPLE.

but to corporate oil interests entrenched by permanent bases and an ongoing neverending civil war in some of the world's most strategic real estate, could be viewed by some as the biggest bonanza and blank cheque in history.

the mideast gets more balkanized, more backward, more prey to domination.

this is it, this was their great shot, and we all stood by and cheered.