Mama had a baby and her head popped off

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Looger

saddam had plenty of god in his speeches but then so does gw bush.

.

Are you seriously trying to compare references to religion in a typical Saddam speech to that of a typical GW Bush speech?

. . . . and I did say in my post above that deeds were different than words in Iraq, but also accurately observed that our version of the word "secular" wouldn't fit even in a "Saddam Hussein Iraq."

I also didn't use the differentation to justify the invasion after-the-fact. Nice try though.

Cowperson

[Looger]

yep, you're sure right aboot our version of secular.

in our version of 'secular' we place some people abopve others, and saddam's iraq did not - at least by religion.

his discrimination was more against anyone opposed to his despotic tight-fisted rule.

but to look at the mideast in general and then iraq under saddam - boy what a contrast.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

. . . . and I did say in my post above that deeds were different than words in Iraq, but also accurately observed that our version of the word "secular" wouldn't fit even in a "Saddam Hussein Iraq."

Well, it's a different context. Saddam was a member of a sectarian ruling class who believed (still believe, AFAIK) that they have a god-given right to rule over another sect. My understanding is that he was a great co-opter of religious language and dogma to his own ends. But now, as he's made his final pitch for martyrdom, the forces of order and justice in the world would be wise to point out that he is poorly suited to that mold--never having been an actual spiritual leader. Otherwise, he might just succeed, given how ghoulish his execution was. When the most dignified person at an execution is the sadistic raving lunatic strongman dictator, there's a problem with how it's being carried out.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Looger

yep, you're sure right aboot our version of secular.

in our version of 'secular' we place some people abopve others, and saddam's iraq did not - at least by religion.

his discrimination was more against anyone opposed to his despotic tight-fisted rule.

but to look at the mideast in general and then iraq under saddam - boy what a contrast.

Hmmmmmm . . . . . . not necessarily.

You brought up female university graduates so . . . .

More than 50% of university graduates in Jordan are female. Egypt has a fairly high graduation rate for females as well, a goodly percentage of them in engineering. Sixty per cent of enrollees in university in the United Arab Emirates are women. Sixty per cent of university spaces in Iran are taken by women. I would assume places like Libya, Kuwait, etc would be similar.

And it goes on and on. Not at all different from Saddam's Iraq.

Women appear to be about 55% of Saudi university graduates . . . . but only 5% of the work force.

And maybe that last part is where Saddam might separate himself from the rest . . . graduating is fine but was that where the opportunity ended as it appears to be the case in Saudi? Or was there genuine opportunity in Saddam's Iraq? Or is Saudi the exception? Or is it simply common in poorer countries that the percentage of women in the workplace is naturally lower than it would be in a more prosperous society?

Obviously the Muslim world is littered with dictatorships, allegedly secular or obviously religious, of various degrees of benevolence and slaughter.

In this thread, I merely observed that the word secular as it seems to be applied to this debate really doesn't match up with what we in the west would agree "secular" would look like.

When the most dignified person at an execution is the sadistic raving lunatic strongman dictator, there's a problem with how it's being carried out.

I do not believe I ever said otherwise. Although I pointed out that mayhem and taunting at this kind of thing seems to have been the norm in ages past. Not excusing it . . . . just making an observation.

Cowperson

[Looger]

good points on jordan and egypt.

i believe that i heard somewhere that iraq's doctors in particular had an inordiantely large female percentage.

iraq's huge needs of men in uniform may be a big factor as well.

i just... get so sick of hearing all of these bad things aboot saddam when i'm old enough to remember how lauded he was over here when he was gassing and slaughtering people we wanted him to. it really gets to me, the doublethink.

yes, to a casual observer saddam seems to call upon the religous will of all muslims but he was on the wrong side of a war with saudi arabia as far as most muslims were concerned, so it's more rhetoric and hot air than anything else.

it simply amazes me how secular saddam's regime was in matters of religious freedom (something that is going away in modern iraq...), as discriminatory as it was in so many other ways iraq was on a track to what we would think of as modern - something like turkey.