Severance Packages

[edn88]

I am not sure soliciting advice from CP is the best idea in this sort of matter. I think that asking a lawyer is your best recourse, unless you are resigned to accepting the 3 months you have been offered.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by edn88

I am not sure soliciting advice from CP is the best idea in this sort of matter. I think that asking a lawyer is your best recourse, unless you are resigned to accepting the 3 months you have been offered.

No no no. Consulting CP is ALWAYS the best idea.

For instance, if you cut a major arteroid and are bleeding uncontrollably your first step should think "hmmmm wonder what the folks on CP would recommend". You should immediately log on to CP and find out.

Same goes with if you arrive home and find your wife in bed with another man. Consult CP.

Arrested? Consult CP.

Lost in the wildernesss? Consult CP.

It's just a good rule of thumb in any situation.

[eazyduzzit]

Originally Posted by Slava

Every case that I've ever dealt with has the compensation based on the time of service. It depends on the employer, but generally it will be a month for every year of service (as an example) or something similar to that.

Thats what i'm hearing so i've been told i should be easily recieving about 4 months. I'm just not sure if it's worth the bother.

Originally Posted by Slava

I'm not a lawyer and certainly not trying to dissuade you from using one (I have some excellent friends who are lawyers!), but you have to remember that any gains through them come with a cost (from a purely financial point of view).

Oh my lawyer isn't like this. He has been a family friend for close to 12 years and i consider him more of a friend than a lawyer.

Defenitely appreciate the heads up though.

Originally Posted by Molsoninbothhands

I was always under the impression that two weeks severance was all that is required, and two weeks for every year of service was the norm that most companies followed. Frankly, if I was let go, today, and given two weeks per year, I would dance naked on my front lawn today. That would give me four months salary, and I know I can get a job tomorrow.

Even though your given 3 months salary, you don't get all that cash in your hand. It's still drawn out in 2 week intervals or however you where payed. I'm not completely sure on how it's all taxed but i do know if you where to draw all the money out at once, you will be taxed WAY more than if it was drawn out over time as it was just your every bi-weekly payment. So you can get all the cash at once, but you will be losing much more as a result.

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

All in all I thought they were pretty fair. The company was great to work for. But the one thing I learned was that you don't need to bust your ass for a company. Work hard. But don't miss out on life. Because when the going gets tough. The company will look out for their own best interest not yours.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

This is just my opinion. But yeah, I think they are screwing you. Or at least offering you the bare minimum. But if you do take it to court? Will it be worth the hassle?

Exacly. Thats why i'm more than likely just going to take what they have offered and leave.

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Depends on the details surrounding your termination, whether it was wrongful or not. As an IT person I have currently testified in 5 court cases where the plantiff was asking for more. The average that is requested is 2 month(s)/year of service (keep in mind that I am called in when the termination is not amacable, and mostly to provide testimony about websites visited while at work etc which violates the at-work policy.

MYK

Well the general feeling of those who i have talked to and my personal feelings, it's definitely wrongful. I always conducted myself professionaly. As with most management, when you are as such, you generally can't be on your employers side. This is the conclusions i've drawn through my experiences and experiences of friends/family members.

Originally Posted by longsuffering

This doesn't make sense to me. You're saying this was YOUR (and your friends) startup but you have no equity and you've been nothing more than an employee. Which is it? Were you employed by the company or did you start it?

I didn't explain right, as i was trying to type the least amount possible.

Technically speaking, it wasn't my company, or even our.

This specific company had been exploring options of opening up an operation here and they had not pulled the trigger. One of my former close friends did most of the technical stuff and advocate the company to open up. We setup the operation but it was not funded by us. We just ran it.

So basically it was started by 2 friends and myself, eventually hiring more staff once technical things where off the ground. I played the lesser role out of the 3. Once the company was bought out, they shuck everything up in the 4 offices they currently have globally. That included 1 of those 2 getting layed off, while the other seemed to spend most his time sucking up to the Houston based office to get brownie points, even though he knew how they wanted to conduct things and how we where being treat was completely wrong. Myself, being the lesser of the 3 simply oversaw a handful of staff in the field and coordinated the tasks at hand. That was always my position and i never wanted anything more, i'm more of the type who likes the hands on stuff and not so much the technical business aspects. So i spent a lot of time trying to come to common ground between the un reasonable things expected with the pratical outcomes.

About 3-4 employees have already stated to me on a number of occasions that if i leave, they won't be around too much longer after -- to give you an idea of what goes on. It seems i'm the person who holds it together and stops things from getting ridiculous.

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I don't know you from Adam and clearly you feel you've been wronged, but I can't help but think we're not hearing the full story - just your side of it.

Sorry.

In all honesty, what i said is what happened, I've been royally screwed for sticking up for my employees.

In my years of being there, we have had our fair share of people just out right quitting, due to the way things are run... none of which i had the power to change. Once management was switched because of the houston buyout, the company just went down hill and i was sort of stuck in the middle of the new owners and the employees. Like i have pointed out, i feel as though when your in a position of authority you generally have to take the side of managment and since i chose to stick up for those i managed/oversaw i was looked at negativly from the new owners prespective, even though everyone agreed the way it was been run was ridiculous.

Originally Posted by longsuffering

For what its worth, forget the lawyer, don't threaten legal action ('cause they would probably pull their offer off the table), but calmly and rationally counteroffer their severance offer on the basis of the 'facts' you've outlined. It would help your cause if you could cite examples where you added revenue or brought in new clients, etc to the company. Worse they can do is say 'thats our final offer', in which case I'd shake hands, wish them luck and move on with your life.

Great advice and this is exacly what i was told by my lawyer.

Over the years, i've kept all my reviews. (We did quarterly reviews every year)

Never once, in all my reviews, did they say anything negative about me. It was always positive and i was always moving in the right direction. Then suddenly they drop the bomb as though i have been a problem all along.

I have also kept about 100 e-mails from different companies/clients/sub-contracting companies in the industry who said i conducted things very professionaly and was a pleasure to work with.

I also believe most of my staff would also vouch for me, i just don't want to bring them into this as i feel thats not fair.

With that said, i believe any legal proceeding would envolve my former co-workers. Although i know atleast 3 of them would speak on my behalf, i don't think it's right to bring them into this situation for my personal gain.

So as many have said, it's probably not worth it.

Originally Posted by MagicallyAdept

I on the other hand do not give a flying turd about one of the the companies i work for. When i started many moons ago it was a great place to work, basically the deal was get all your work done by its due date and do whatever you want after. Long lunches, days off, company parties were all had and our bosses joined us, huge bonuses were dolled out at Christmas and no on ever got fired as long as you did what you were hired for. It all changed about 5 yrs ago when an American company took over the reigns. Implementation of their ideals meant no more fun, less money, more hours and strict timekeeping. The smart ones got out then, some got kicked out with a poor severence. I was one of the employees that didn't share my tricks on my job so i was the only one who had certain contacts or understand certain spects of my position. Over the last 5 years me and the few remaining old skoolers have taken an approach of who gives a ****. If we get fired so be it, the company has made less money each year and our parent firm have no idea how the market works over here in the UK.

I completely understand.

This is what we build, it was a very positive place to work and very flexible. We did not have strict hours, so for example if someone came into work an hour late, as long as they worked through their lunch or put in a little over time we didn't care. Staff where payed above industry avarage and bonus' where often - given the success.

As in your case, it was all changed when management was changed at head office - which forced management to be changed with our setup.

[eazyduzzit]

Originally Posted by MagicallyAdept

Its a shame but i couldn't care anymore. I am lucky enough to earn extra money in a few other part time jobs otherwise i would have to join the work longer than i sleep brigade. I wish i could have worked here in 70s/80s as the top floor of the office was a licensed pub!! It seems so many companies try to work the life out of their employees and when they are no longer of use, kick them out and replace them with someone younger and cheaper. No loyalty anymore and also no trust between any staff. I have lived by the 'work to live' motto my whole life and i will never change. I am not suited to office work but it was fun at the start meeting people and making deals. When i get fired i will complete my scuba diving instructor training and do that for a living somewhere tropical. Its a sad state of affairs these days with most jobs.

I completely understand.

You sound a lot like some of my close family members/friends.

They tend to have the argument of Americans/Canadians could write what they know about management on a small piece of paper with a large crayon.

I don't completely support this but i do find more often than not, a lot of management are in it for personal gain and as you have said, will simply throw you away when the time comes.

Originally Posted by jamesteterenko

In your situation, I would ask myself the following questions:
* Other than salary and other items accounted for in the package, is there some potential future income that I would have likely got from them in the near future (e.g. a bonus that you get every year or stock options about to vest)?
* Is there anything that my employer has done that will make it difficult for me to find a job in the next three months?
* Do I feel that the extra amount that is likely to be awarded with a court battle likely to worth more than the time, stress, and legal fees of continuing the battle?

Thanks.

Originally Posted by jamesteterenko

It sounds like you feel you were unfairly compensated for the work you did. However, you did agree to the salary and to work the hours you put in. You could have quit or try to negotiate different compensation or work schedule at any time. You didn't. Trying to do so after you no longer work there will not likely get you much. On the positive side, you probably gained great experience in the work you did that should make it much easier for you to find another job.

I have no problem with my salary, i never have.

When it comes to salaries, i had a problem with the upper managment lowballing my staff, when it came down to my salary, i feel it was ok. I can't really complain, i was making quite a bit of money given my age and short time with the company (4 yrs)

I just feel as though i put up with a lot and really build this operation and put a lot of effort into it. To simply be thrown out for no real reason (as i have further stated in this reply) is unfair.

But i'm all too aware of Albertas employment laws, they are heavily favored to the employer and not the employee.

Originally Posted by CrzyCanuck

A month per year is standard for normal mid-level managers, , unless your over 50, then you can get more. Full beneifts for the full 4 months, bonus, car allowances, and everything else you would normally be paid buring the 4 months should be included. If you were never reimbursed for your overtime from the past, your might as well figure out what they still owe you, and pile that on.

I'm definitely not over 50 haha, i'm 28.

Benefits was definitely an issue for me as i am currently taking care of my nephew for some personal reasons so if anything should come up in the next little while, i won't be fully covered.

Not to mention, when you start a new job, benefits don't usually kick in right away, or atleast not 100%

I was hoping for atleast 4 months full, but they are only offering 2 months plus another 2 which will only cover a certain % of certain things.

But at the end of the day, if worst gets to worst, i can pay a bit of dental or whatever myself, i'd rather not have the hassle of a legal proceeding.

Originally Posted by edn88

I am not sure soliciting advice from CP is the best idea in this sort of matter. I think that asking a lawyer is your best recourse, unless you are resigned to accepting the 3 months you have been offered.

I've been learning heavily to just accepting, i was just looking for more opinions.




---------
---------

Anyways, thanks for the replys. I'll probably just accept, even though i'm not that happy with only 3 months and the benefits situation.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

..... but i do know if you where to draw all the money out at once, you will be taxed WAY more than if it was drawn out over time as it was just your every bi-weekly payment.

Keep in mind, that you will still pay the same amount in taxes either way. Lump sum payment will result in more taxes coming off right away, but at the end of the year when you do your return you'll get the extra back.

However; if you are on bi-weekly payments, and you find another job in 2 weeks time, you will actually be under paying your taxes, and will end up owing more at the end of the year.

Not sure if you have an option in either case; just wanted to make sure you are aware.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Keep in mind, that you will still pay the same amount in taxes either way. Lump sum payment will result in more taxes coming off right away, but at the end of the year when you do your return you'll get the extra back.

However; if you are on bi-weekly payments, and you find another job in 2 weeks time, you will actually be under paying your taxes, and will end up owing more at the end of the year.

Not sure if you have an option in either case; just wanted to make sure you are aware.

Also if you are considering applying for UIC or whatever its called this day, you may not be eligible until your biweekly cheques run out. I might be wrong, but maybe worth considering or checking out in a just in case sense.

[ericschand]

"Even though your given 3 months salary, you don't get all that cash in your hand. It's still drawn out in 2 week intervals or however you where payed."

Be very careful and read everything regarding the severance, and
how it's paid out.

A friend of mine was let go by the company. They offered him severance,
and suggested that he take the 2 week payment (the serverance was
6 months of pay) for the duration of the severance.

So he's thinking he gets normal pay for 6 months, not too bad.
He was also thinking about the tax implications, etc.

Nope. According to the contract they wanted him to sign, taking the
2 week payments, it ends as soon as he is employed by someone else.
They didn't tell him that part, and he caught it when he scrutinized
the contract.

Obviously he then took the lump sum payment.

Severance is supposed to be a payment for the time you won't have
a job, so technically they were in the right, however, morally not telling
someone when/how it would end and urging them to sign...

ers

[eazyduzzit]

I managed to negotiate an extra month so I've recieved 4 months....my name be on the dotted line.

Now I'm seriously considering a move to Barbados to work with my friend who is a scuba diving instructor as well as operating a business which takes tourists out fishing.

Other than a short term responsibility of looking after my Nephew, I may be departing the great city of Calgary in June.

Thanks again for all the replys.

[eazyduzzit]

Btw, if anyone is after a boat:

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=36482

[Hack&Lube]

From the bare minimum of cases I have read in employment law (which does not qualify me to give any real advice) and from what you've written and described as you basically being one of the foundations responsible for this branch-off in the first place and getting it started...plus the way this all unfolded with them telling you a week off, etc...

You will likely do well in court in recieving a much better settlement because of your time and work invested in creating it. But you should check with a lawyer familiar with employment law first.

[eazyduzzit]

^^ So I've heard

Either way, I wouldn't be too suprised since i will more than likely be posting in this thread in about 6 months that either A. About 5 employees have quit or B. The company goes under...or both. So i'll get the last laugh.

[Flames in 07]

Your package seems on the light end given your involvement in the early days of the company. However if you are smart enough to start up a company once, your smart enough to do it again.

Why fight for a few more thousand dollars, when you have an opportunity to turn the page and move on.

Unless you really need the money I would look at signing the release.

[MagicallyAdept]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

I managed to negotiate an extra month so I've recieved 4 months....my name be on the dotted line.

Now I'm seriously considering a move to Barbados to work with my friend who is a scuba diving instructor as well as operating a business which takes tourists out fishing.

Other than a short term responsibility of looking after my Nephew, I may be departing the great city of Calgary in June.

Thanks again for all the replys.

Good luck to you my friend. Scuba diving was my idea... :P

Seriously though after i wrote that reply i emailed my friend who was scuba instructing in Dubai and guess where he teaches now - Vancouver! Not the tropical weather i was hoping for but still good diving if you like freezing your behind off in kelp forests.

Magic.