Another mass grave discovered in Iraq

[arsenal]

There will always be civilian casualties in war. But the casualties can be somewhat minimized by using technology, and good intelligence.
Do those civilian numbers include insurgents as well?
Every innocent life lost is tragic, and the worst thing the US and their coalition can do is pull out, becuase then the loss of life with be in vain. What they can do now is make sure that those that lost their lives, lost it for a reason. That reason being a free Iraq.

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch+Oct 13 2004, 09:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CaptainCrunch @ Oct 13 2004, 09:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-FlamesAllTheWay@Oct 14 2004, 03:21 AM
It is estimated that between 13 000 and 15 000 Iraqi civilians have died in Iraq since the war started. Add to that the 1000 American casualties and that is alot of dead people in Iraq in less than 2 years. Dead people Saddam was not responsible for. Not defending the guy by any means, i'm glad he's gone, but it goes to show that the system Bush has in place in Iraq isn't doing a great job of preserving human life either.Really makes it easier to understand the statement we sometimes hear out of Iraq that life was better under Saddam.

I do realize, though, that Saddam's killings were done on purpose (however, many were done when he was friends with the West) and that these civilian deaths at the hands of the American army are mostly due to 'collateral damage' (...), but the end result is still the same...

And on the casualty web site how many of those casualties were caused by car bombings and attacks by insurectionists.

Are those to be blamed on American's as well?

Just curious [/b][/quote]
Not at all, but how often was this happening in Iraq before Bush started this little war?

Seems to me that alot of uneccesary deaths in Iraq are still occuring, just from a different source than before. Where Saddam and his killings ended, suicide bombings, errant misiles, etc, etc, picked up in place.

But it doesn't really matter if I think America is responsible, ask the people in Iraq. What would they say? As I said above, none of this was occuring before this invasion began. Would an Iraqi whose house just got nailed with a missile blame America? Would an Iraq who's family got blown up by a suicide bomber blame America, knowing this would not have happened if Iraq had not been invaded? They may blame the insurgents who are actually responsible, or take it a notch further and blame America for causing this insurgent movement (which I don't really agree with, as I stated above).

EDIT: My bad, 3000 of those numbers I posted come out of Afghanistan and not Iraq as I had previously indicated...

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally posted by arsenal@Oct 13 2004, 09:34 PM
There will always be civilian casualties in war. But the casualties can be somewhat minimized by using technology, and good intelligence.
Do those civilian numbers include insurgents as well?
Every innocent life lost is tragic, and the worst thing the US and their coalition can do is pull out, becuase then the loss of life with be in vain. What they can do now is make sure that those that lost their lives, lost it for a reason. That reason being a free Iraq.

The numbers are every civilian death in Iraq, cause by insurgents or coalition forces.

Now i'm all for staying in Iraq now that the U.S.A. is there. They can't leave now, a terror hotbed will be left behind and, as you said, all those deaths will be in vain. I already think these deaths have been in vain in one sense though. This was an uneccessary war, in my view, and none of this had to happen. Or if war is the only option, then make sure your post-war plan does not consist of securing important oil sites and winging it hence forth.

However, I can agree with you in saying that if we leave now then the deaths will be totally in vain. As I said above, packing up and leaving is not an option.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ is the site, you guys can check it out for yourself. It's been quoted tons in the media and is considered a reliable source for the estimated deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan...

[sjwalter]

Originally posted by FlamesAllTheWay@Oct 13 2004, 08:21 PM
It is estimated that between 13 000 and 15 000 Iraqi civilians have died in Iraq since the war started. Add to that the 1000 American casualties and that is alot of dead people in Iraq in less than 2 years. Dead people Saddam was not responsible for. Not defending the guy by any means, i'm glad he's gone, but it goes to show that the system Bush has in place in Iraq isn't doing a great job of preserving human life either.Really makes it easier to understand the statement we sometimes hear out of Iraq that life was better under Saddam.

I do realize, though, that Saddam's killings were done on purpose (however, many were done when he was friends with the West) and that these civilian deaths at the hands of the American army are mostly due to 'collateral damage' (...), but the end result is still the same...

Give me one War that was fought without civilians killed. Better the 13-15000 then millions more. Compare the numbers i think Iraq sacrificed its people wisely. War was never meant to be without bloodshed and where would the world be today if it weren't for the sacrifice of good people. Most of the free countries were established this way. Not that i'm supporting the war because Bush could have gone in on better terms, but i support the fact that Saddam is out of power and that the people of Iraq are better off regardless of how many died during the War so far.

And yes i agree with you that its really easy to say life was better under Saddam, because nobody ever heard of the mass graves until now and even now it doesn't strike people that Saddam WAS actually killing his own people.

He himself was a WMD, so yes the US did find some. :unsure:

[calculoso]

Originally posted by FlamesAllTheWay@Oct 13 2004, 09:51 PM
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ is the site, you guys can check it out for yourself. It's been quoted tons in the media and is considered a reliable source for the estimated deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan...

Is there a website for the body count of what Saddam did to his people before the war?

If not, it's not a fair comparison. If you didn't hear about any before and now are, you're automatically going to jump to the conclusion that it's much worse now than before, even if it isn't the case.

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally posted by calculoso+Oct 13 2004, 10:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (calculoso @ Oct 13 2004, 10:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-FlamesAllTheWay@Oct 13 2004, 09:51 PM
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ is the site, you guys can check it out for yourself. It's been quoted tons in the media and is considered a reliable source for the estimated deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan...

Is there a website for the body count of what Saddam did to his people before the war?

If not, it's not a fair comparison. If you didn't hear about any before and now are, you're automatically going to jump to the conclusion that it's much worse now than before, even if it isn't the case. [/b][/quote]
Oh for sure Saddam's killed more of his own citizens than have been killed since the war began. However, much of Saddam's killing was done from the mid 80's to the early 90's, which is probably why we hear some of the 'Iraq was better under Saddam than America' stuff, cause most of these killings are distant past. Another reason is that i'm sure Saddam's supporters aren't too happy either cause he's not paying them off anymore too (and i'm sure we can all agree we don't really care about that).

I'm just trying to point out that since the war began more people have probably been dieing than in the years leading up to the war. Or at least the deaths are more open and visible. It just goes to supplement my bigger point that this war is stirring up alot of anti-American sentiment, creating more terrorists than it is stopping and is generally just making things worse.

Interesting to note that since Bush declared this war on terror and employed his method of fighting this war, way more Iraqi's and Afghani's have died than westerners hit by terrorists. Probably not a good thing when you are trying to win support for your war on terror...

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally posted by sjwalter+Oct 13 2004, 10:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (sjwalter @ Oct 13 2004, 10:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Give me one War that was fought without civilians killed. Better the 13-15000 then millions more. [/b]

That's not what i'm arguing here. Of course there will be casualties in war, and civilian ones at that. I'm arguing within the boundaries of this particular war, a war that I think was uneccessary and poorly planned. I'm showing, as I stated above, that if people percieved Saddam as evil because he killed his own people, how will they percieve the U.S.A. when in a year and a half 13 000 people have died as a result, directly or indirectly, of it's actions?

Originally posted by sjwalter+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (sjwalter)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Compare the numbers i think Iraq sacrificed its people wisely.#
[/b]

Did the Iraqi people have a say in the matter of sacrificing their own people?

<!--QuoteBegin-sjwalter@

Most of the free countries were established this way.# Not that i'm supporting the war because Bush could have gone in on better terms, but i support the fact that Saddam is out of power and that the people of Iraq are better off regardless of how many died during the War so far.
[/quote]
Hey, i'm glad Saddam's gone too, i've said it alot now. Once again I raise the point that what really matters is if the Iraqi people think they are better off, for two reasons. The first being that they are right in the middle of this and it's really all about them. The second being that it's probably not a good thing if Iraqi's and neighboring Middle Eastern countries see America in a bad light because it creates more anti-Americanism and more terrorists as a result. Sort of defeats the whole purpose of a war on terror if your method of conducting the war create more terrorists and hatred towards America.

<!--QuoteBegin-sjwalter

And yes i agree with you that its really easy to say life was better under Saddam, because nobody ever heard of the mass graves until now and even now it doesn't strike people that Saddam WAS actually killing his own people.
[/quote]
I said this in another post but part of the reason Iraqi's might think life was better under Saddam was because Saddam did much if his killing in a very covert manner and, as you said, things are only coming to light now. Out od sight, out of mind, so to speak. This is in contrast to the suicide bombings and aerial bombings we, and they, see everyday...

[badnarik]

if you are interested in some different perspectives from within iraq, by iraqis, i recommend reading some of the iraqi blogs, of which i'm sure some of you are already aware.

http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/ offers a mostly positive outlook and has regular updates.

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally posted by badnarik+Oct 13 2004, 11:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (badnarik @ Oct 13 2004, 11:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> if you are interested in some different perspectives from within iraq, by iraqis, i recommend reading some of the iraqi blogs, of which i'm sure some of you are already aware.

http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/ offers a mostly positive outlook and has regular updates. [/b]

Hey, nice link. Thanks for posting it.

<!--QuoteBegin-Blogger wrote

Despite the sad event on which the strike was based and despite that I got personally affected by it, I still feel it’s a good thing that hundreds of Iraqis performed an organized protest. Such things you could never hear or even dream about before the war.
[/quote]
Good to hear. We all judge Iraq right now and it's only a year and a half since the invasion occured. Things could be alot different a year, or two, or many, down the road, good or bad.

[sjwalter]

Originally posted by FlamesAllTheWay@Oct 13 2004, 09:59 PM

Did the Iraqi people have a say in the matter of sacrificing their own people?

[/quote]
I agree with you they never had a choice, just saying that this is what happens in war.

It frustrates me when people start blaming the US Military for the civilian deaths not saying that you are and fail to realize that you can't compare these deaths to the killing Saddam did to his own people.