Should the US be executing teenagers?

[kipperfan]

Originally posted by Conroy_Chick@Oct 14 2004, 01:24 AM
I'm for it. If you're old enough to do the crime you should do the time. It also costs tax payers to keep them in jail. The justice system here in the USA is horrible.

agreeded, i hope who ever said it costs more to kill than to life imprison a felon was kidding. iits roughly 75000-80000 a year for canadian prisoners in the federal system. I dont know the exact cost of lethal injection/e chair but i know it aint even close to those figures(18 year old(lives till ave age 76) thats 58 years in jail, 58x800000=$4, 640, 000.00, and thats without any inflation(haha)


NO WAY should 3-4-5 million dollars of our tax dollars go to rapists, sex predators, and violent murders.

You can't tell me a serial rapist targeting young girls/boys shoudlnt by zapped?

[Hockey_Rules_22]

I'm glad someone agrees with me and what I said.

[BlackArcher101]

Just finished watching the Ng trial on A&E. They were leaning towards a life sentence without the possibility of parol... until the victims families spoke up. The comments coming out of their mouths were pure revenge. Along the lines of "I don't care, I just want to see him dead". I was rather disgusted in the way they acted. They sounded like they were trying to hire a hitman to kill the guy. I realized his actions were bad, but come on, it's pure revenge and hatred.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by BlackArcher101@Oct 14 2004, 02:06 AM
Just finished watching the Ng trial on A&E. They were leaning towards a life sentence without the possibility of parol... until the victims families spoke up. The comments coming out of their mouths were pure revenge. Along the lines of "I don't care, I just want to see him dead". I was rather disgusted in the way they acted. They sounded like they were trying to hire a hitman to kill the guy. I realized his actions were bad, but come on, it's pure revenge and hatred.

Are the families supposed to forgive NG? The guy was a monster, he and Lake tortured, raped and murdered people. They never had a chance for closure, they never had a chance to say goodbye, thier sons and daughters are brutally killed by a couple of people that have no purpose on this earth.

I have to tell you, if somebody did something like that to my kid, I would completely blow them away, no hesitation at all.

In certain cases in my mind the Death Penalty is perfectly sound. with the advent of DNA evidence its becoming less likely for mistakes to happen.


Whats the purpose of Nh, or Manson or Bernardo continueing to live out thier lives. they aren't leaving prison. Its unlikely that they feel any kind of remorse, its unlikely that they're ever going to be able to rejoin society

Put a piece of bread in each hand and flip the switch.

Toast

[BlackArcher101]

I see your point, Captain Crunch sir, but it's what I believe. To me it's like the Pot calling the Kettle Black. You want a person dead because he killed someone.

I myself wouldn't feel remorse for the man, but I woudn't step down to his level and want him dead. I'll be happy with a Guilty conviction and him off the streets.

[kipperfan]

Originally posted by BlackArcher101@Oct 14 2004, 02:40 AM
I see your point Captain Crunch sir, but it's what I believe. To me it's like the Pot calling the Kettle Black. You want a person dead because he killed someone.

No, I want a person dead beacuse he has voilently raped and abused 5-50 l=young boys/girls, ruining the lives or our childern canty be excepted.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally posted by kipperfan@Oct 13 2004, 10:43 PM
No, I want a person dead beacuse he has voilently raped and abused 5-50 l=young boys/girls, ruining the lives or our childern canty be excepted.

And killing him instead of putting him in a cell achieves this in a better way? Whatever makes you sleep at night I guess.

[kipperfan]

Originally posted by BlackArcher101+Oct 14 2004, 02:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BlackArcher101 @ Oct 14 2004, 02:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-kipperfan@Oct 13 2004, 10:43 PM
No, I want a person dead beacuse he has voilently raped and abused 5-50 l=young boys/girls, ruining the lives or our childern canty be excepted.

And killing him instead of putting him in a cell achieves this in a better way? Whatever makes you sleep at night I guess. [/b][/quote]
no, what makes me sleep better is spending 20 bucks to buy a rope and hang em a culprit, rather than fork out or 4 mill to "house" them in prison.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by BlackArcher101+Oct 14 2004, 02:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BlackArcher101 @ Oct 14 2004, 02:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-kipperfan@Oct 13 2004, 10:43 PM
No, I want a person dead beacuse he has voilently raped and abused 5-50 l=young boys/girls, ruining the lives or our childern canty be excepted.

And killing him instead of putting him in a cell achieves this in a better way? Whatever makes you sleep at night I guess. [/b][/quote]
Whats the point of putting him in a jail cell, rehab, to make him think about his crime and feel shame?

To take the chance that he's going to either escape or get out and kill again.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by BlackArcher101@Oct 14 2004, 02:40 AM
I see your point, Captain Crunch sir, but it's what I believe. To me it's like the Pot calling the Kettle Black. You want a person dead because he killed someone.

I myself wouldn't feel remorse for the man, but I woudn't step down to his level and want him dead. I'll be happy with a Guilty conviction and him off the streets.

No offense BA, but I don't think the vast majority of people could make that claim and have it mean anything without having experienced what victim's families experience.

It's a noble thought, but it might be tough for you to maintain that moral highground if it were your relative that had been murdered.

[BlackArcher101]

DFF, I realize that the majority wouldn't be able to keep that same train of thought, but I also do come from a somewhat similar experience. A friend was killed by someone, but the killer ended up on the streets again thanks to the Canadian justice system.

To take the chance that he's going to either escape or get out and kill again.

I'm sure if he deserved the death penality, then he wouldn't be getting parole, so you wouldn't have to worry about him roaming the streets anyways.

Subjects like these are based on personal beliefs. I see the viewpoints both for and against, and my personal belief is against, but I respect the other side also. This could go on and on, so I'm going to stop here.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Oct 13 2004, 09:06 PM

It's a noble thought, but it might be tough for you to maintain that moral highground if it were your relative that had been murdered.

I'm sure we'd all agree with that, but that's why we have a justice system and not a vigilante system. It's hard, if not impossible, for the victim to take the moral high ground. People want vengeance, but it doesn't work. How many people are truly satisfied after the murderer of their son or daughter is executed? From what I've read, not many, or none.

There are people who would want the death penalty for the kid who keyed their car. We can't leave it up to the victim to decide what is right.

It's state sponsored "two wrongs make a right" which we all know doesn't work. Another old cliché applies as well -- "do as I say, not as I do". That doesn't work either.

Regarding the "it can't cost more to kill them with $200 worth of chemicals than it does to keep them in jail", it's just a little more complicated than that.

[FlamesAddiction]

I think some people are overrating the comforts of prison. It's a little worse than a "warm bed" and freedom from worrying about money and food. You instead have to worry about beatings (from guards and inmates), never seeing your family or friends, never going anywhere, prison rapes, and the list goes on. It's not a pleasant place. Sure some minimum security prisons my not be too bad, but a murderer should never be in one of those places.

[Reaper]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Oct 13 2004, 10:35 PM
Regarding the "it can't cost more to kill them with $200 worth of chemicals than it does to keep them in jail", it's just a little more complicated than that.

Well, since I was the one who posted saying that the chemicals required for lethal injection cost no more than $200 I'll respond.

What exactly are you saying? I was referring to the actual cost not the moral implications of the death penalty.

I'm not in favour of the death penalty, so you can stuff the condescending tone and avoid attempts at talking down to me.

[duncan]

Originally posted by Reaper@Oct 13 2004, 10:50 PM
It is really ridiculous for two reasons:
1) Most people don't like to give up their freedom in the way that jail forces you to.
2) Grass roots social programs actually go a long way towards feeding the destitute.

Actually, if you worked in the field, you would know he isn't off base. I have worked in Young Offender/Youth/Remand facilities (depending on the government)for 13 years, and have seen this alot. Social Assistance is great, and it helps thousands of needy people, but it also has thousands slip through the cracks. There are alot of teenagers and adults that turn to crime due to their situations, whether to feed themselves or a habit, and some even do crime to get arrested, because they get a warm bed, clean clothes, and hot food in an environment where they feel safer. A tell tale comment came from a kid that had lived on the street off and on for 8 years, he was only 16, and he said,
" This is great, you guys bring me clean clothes, three squares, a bed time snack, a warm bed with clean sheets, and a hot shower. I get to go to school, and watch TV and you have people that take me to play games. I have to tell all my friends about this, it beats squeegeeing, maybe they can do the winter here."
For awhile, there was a problem with street kids and whinos admitting to crimes they hadn't committed, to sit in remand until the court case, so they could be warm and dry.

"I think so people are overrating the comforts of prison. It's a little worse than a "warm bed" and freedom from worrying about money and food. You instead have to worry about beatings (from guards and inmates), never seeing your family or friends, never going anywhere, prison rapes, and the list goes on. It's not a pleasant place. Sure some minimum security prisons my not be too bad, but a murderer should never be in one of those places.
" Flames Addiction.

This isn't the 1970's in the Southern USA, or some Central American prison. 99% of our facilities are armed with Closed Circuit Television Cameras and many now have computer backups that detail the moment a camera is deemed malfunctional, and which doors are opened. Groups like the Elizabeth Fry Society, John Howard Society, and Ombudsmen make sure that guards don't assault prisoners, and that the living environment is relatively safe. Most long term prisoners, who have committed indictable offences (especially level 1 offences) are placed in individual cells, in 22-23 hour lockdown environments for their own protection. All federal inmates are placed in a Detention center while they are tried and assessed, and their final location is determined from there, whether it be minimum, medium or maximum security
3 guards at Metro East Detention Center in Toronto were fired because the force they used was excessive. The days of beating into submission are long over. Our society believes in rehabilitation, and most institutions will actually fund transportation to allow prisoners families (if they need it) to visit.


"I'm sure if he deserved the death penality, then he wouldn't be getting parole, so you wouldn't have to worry about him roaming the streets anyways."

Unfortunately, a life sentence is actually deemed as 15-25 years, and with earned remission, 25 years becomes 16yrs, 8mths. 15 years becomes 10 years. With the YCJA, a Youth can commit a murder, be sentenced as a youth, get the maximum 7 years, only 4 of which are in secure custody, followed by 2 in open custody, and 1 in community supervision.


A recent study showed that it cost approximately $250 000 per year, to house a federal inmate. A 10 year stint costs $2.5M, and the recidivism rate for this group is about 40%. High cost, low results.

[the_only_turek_fan]

Originally posted by Reaper@Oct 13 2004, 05:10 PM


As far as sacrificing personal freedom goes... Have you ever been forced to give up your freedom? Have you ever been homeless or starving? If not, Then you can't speak as if you would know what someone in those positions would do. Many homeless persons actually forego staying at shelters because they feel they would be "locked down" and prefer to spend the night in the cold over feeling an impingement on their freedom.

Ok, hold on just a second here.

All I am suggesting here is that people in very unfortunate situations have that choice. I am not saying they do. I am sure most of them have thought about it, and some actually have. But most dont becuase its a moral issue. But some people have gone through with it, and are now have food, clothing, and shelter courtesy of Candian taxpayers.

I have never had to sacrifise my freedom, nor have I been homeless. BUT, if I were it is an option that would definately cross my mind more than once. I just dont have the moral concious to murder someone. You never really addressed my question earlier. If you have NOTHING, and are on the streets what do you do? Is freedom really that important when you are very hungary, cold, and are just desperate to get through the day. I dont think that Freedom of speech and the right to vote are the first thing on there minds. If you still dont believe me, this December camp out with some old clothes and tell me what you want. Dinner? Would you like to go home?, or your freedom. I am sorry, this topic just strikes a nerve. I am just so against this whole thing.

My big beef in all of this is the fact that every Canadian is qualified to make $5.90/Hr. in Alberta. Now I know thats not NHLPA money, but its probably more than what they make begging. Instead of feeling sorry for themselves why not go to a retail store and explain there situation and I am sure eventually they can get a job, and then go from there.

Instead of doing this, some homeless people are chosing to take the easy way out and commit a crime, and go to jail for free, which bothers me because I am a taxpayer.

And this is why I believe that the death penalty should be put back into place.

[the_only_turek_fan]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Oct 13 2004, 05:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Oct 13 2004, 05:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-the_only_turek_fan@Oct 13 2004, 04:55 PM
Riggggggght, hence all the people on the streets that are beging for money.

Huh? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You say "homeless people are motivated to go to jail" in one breath and "hence all the people on the streets" in the next. Which is it? Are people motivated to go to jail or aren't they.

It motivates people who don't have anything going for them to engage in criminal behavior, does it? Why do criminals always try to get away with it? How often do you hear stories about a guy committing a crime and then just hanging out, waiting for the cops?

I've never been to prison either but you paint a pretty rosy picture. Guys in the slammer for murder aren't tiptoeing through the tulips. The are likely locked up 20 hours a day with some other lunatic and when they aren't locked in their cells they are in a very unpleasant environment.

As to the death penalty -- no thanks. It doesn't stop anyone and I say we should leave the murdering to the murderers. It's such a silly message -- "You can't kill someone, it's against the rules, so we'll kill you now".

While we're at it, let's not advocate torture (cold, darkness, very little food)for prisoners either. It's beneath us. [/b][/quote]
Huh? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You say "homeless people are motivated to go to jail" in one breath and "hence all the people on the streets" in the next. Which is it? Are people motivated to go to jail or aren't they.

All I am trying to say is that people in that situation, have that option.
I am not saying that they are motivated to do that at all.


I've never been to prison either but you paint a pretty rosy picture. Guys in the slammer for murder aren't tiptoeing through the tulips. The are likely locked up 20 hours a day with some other lunatic and when they aren't locked in their cells they are in a very unpleasant environment.

Well no one is going to give them a 7 course meal, and a king size bed.

But whatever food they give you is better than having no food. And they dont have to work for it, they just have to sit in there cell and "think" about what they did. All I am trying to say here is that a jail situation beats out a homeless situation, IMO.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

I'm not sure about executing teenagers, but the death penalty is definitely something I support. People often talk about rehabilitating murderers and rapist, but there are some instances where that is just not possible. Most rehabilitational options are theorethical at best (not my words, from my psychologist friend), and often times do not work.

[Agamemnon]

I don't know, seems dumb to me to rule killing another individual illegal, and then make the punishment for it the same as the crime. I think I said in another thread that the English were hanging young boys for thievery in the 1800's. They don't now. They've evolved their judicial/legal process and refined it.

I find the issue of 'should we pay tons of $ to keep prisoners alive' an interesting one. Maybe the appropriate question is 'who the hell is screwing up the prison fiscal system when it costs millions per inmate?' It's not like the conditions are sooo sweet in prison and that it costs a lot to keep up that sweet lifestyle. The reason it costs a lot to keep a prisoner alive is because we're currently innefficient at doing it. If you could keep a hardened killer in prison for life for like $100,000, I'd say that's a pretty good deal for keeping this guy off the streets. Besides, it costs that much to keep an inmate regardless of his crime (basically). A guy who's convicted for 20 on armed robbery and one who's got 20 for murder still cost the system the same amount of cash. Are you going to execute the robber?

Finally, the family of the victims suffer excruciatingly. But to imply that people derive joy or satisfaction by achieving vengeance is probably short-sited. I'm sure a victim's family is filled with bloodlust... that's why they don't get to make the decision. In fact, the whole point of having judge/jury is so we can try to remove emotional constraints from appropriate penalties.

In the end, if you rule punching someone illegal, would you make the punishment a beating? If someone steals, should the punishment be the forfeiture of all the guy's possessions? No. In each case, the offender goes to jail. There is no 'style of punishment fits the style of crime' except in the States for murder.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Reaper+Oct 14 2004, 03:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Reaper @ Oct 14 2004, 03:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RougeUnderoos@Oct 13 2004, 10:35 PM
Regarding the "it can't cost more to kill them with $200 worth of chemicals than it does to keep them in jail", it's just a little more complicated than that.

Well, since I was the one who posted saying that the chemicals required for lethal injection cost no more than $200 I'll respond.

What exactly are you saying? I was referring to the actual cost not the moral implications of the death penalty.

I'm not in favour of the death penalty, so you can stuff the condescending tone and avoid attempts at talking down to me. [/b][/quote]
Fair enough. I wasn't trying to be condescending or talk down to anyone but that is what it looks like.

Anyway, point is they go through countless appeals which cost a freaking fortune. A lot of those guys are on death row for years and years, so they are getting housed and that costs money. I'm sure it costs more to house a guy on death row than it does to keep him in regular prison -- so you have that cost. Then all the court costs for all the appeals and it's getting way the hell up there. The government is paying for both the prosecution and the defence sides and we all know those lawyers don't work for free.

And it all has to be done. They are going to kill the guy so they have to make dam sure that they got the right guy and he doesn't have a way out of it. There is no turning back.