Iran hosting Holocaust conference

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Looger

here we have it, the EXACT reason so many people question the holocaust.

because it is forced down our gullets and manipulated to make everyone feel guilty for something that they did not do.

i can think of one movie focusing on the armenian genocide (ararat), is there one focusing on stalin's starving out of the ukraine?

every year there's more holocaust movies, holocaust memorials, and many people react strongly when focusing on all this.

personally i believe that the ADL and b'nai bri'ith (sp?) hype all this up because without anti-semitism, they are OUT OF BUSINESS. there's been plenty of independent investigations into where the money for anti-jewish hate groups come from, and it's VERY interesting sometimes.

i have a great book on this called 'the holocaust industry' by norman finkelstein. recommend it highly.

Well perhaps those other events aren't paid the attention they should be...but that doesn't necessarily mean that the Holocaust is "rammed down our throats".

Seems to me that all the attention it gets is warranted.

[SeeGeeWhy]

Originally Posted by Barnes

You are aware where this war took place, right?

Yes, I do.

Furthermore, I am 100% Canadian and cannot profess to associate the same horrors that I do with the holocaust to those of the war of 1812. Any war is horrible, but very little comes close to what the Nazi's were doing to a number of groups when they were in power.

One was a territorial battle and the other was mass genocide of multiple groups of people. I fail to see the connection, and I still fail to see how Kipperfan can state that both events hold even remotely the same significance.

And I quote:

"How can people deny the holocaust? [...] Its like me denying the war of 1812."

How is that not drawing a comparison between the two events? How? It is a straight comparison.

You have to understand that the phrase 'the holocaust' has an enormous amount of meaning behind it. Just say it and anyone knows exactly what you mean. Even those who deny that it exists will know exactly what you are referring to when you use that phrase.

Please tell me how Kipperfan, or any random guy from Ontario, denying that the war of 1812 happened has any sort of relevance or basis of comparison to a group of people attempting to deny the exsitence of the holocaust and wipe Isreal off the map?

It is a ****ty comparison, and it makes no sense.

If you were trying to get the point across that denying that the holocaust occurred would be like denying any other factual event, then why didn't you say that?

Why not say..

"Why would people deny the holocaust? [...] That would be like denying that the sun rises every morning."

Instead, you specifically referred to YOURSELF, and THE WAR OF 1812, as if it had some special importance. Do you not understand the difference?

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by SeeGeeWhy

Yes, I do.

Furthermore, I am 100% Canadian and cannot profess to associate the same horrors that I do with the holocaust to those of the war of 1812. Any war is horrible, but very little comes close to what the Nazi's were doing to a number of groups when they were in power.

One was a territorial battle and the other was mass genocide. I fail to see the connection, and I still fail to see how Kipperfan can state that both events hold even remotely the same significance.

And I quote:

"How can people deny the holocaust? [...] Its like me denying the war of 1812."

How is that not drawing a comparison between the two events? How? It is a straight comparison.

You have to understand that the phrase 'the holocaust' has an enormous amount of meaning behind it. Just say it and anyone knows exactly what you mean. Even those who deny that it exists will know exactly what you are referring to when you use that phrase.

Please tell me how Kipperfan, or any random guy from Ontario, denying that the war of 1812 happened has any sort of relevance or basis of comparison to a group of people attempting to deny the exsitance of the holocaust and wipe Isreal off the map?

It is a ****ty comparison, and it makes no sense.

If you were trying to get the point across that denying that the holocaust occurred would be like denying any other factual event, then why didn't you say that?

Why not say..

"Why would people deny the holocaust? [...] That would be like denying that the sun rises every morning."

Instead, you specifically referred to YOURSELF, and THE WAR OF 1812, as if it had some special importance. Do you not understand the difference?

How can someone be so thick headed? Like honestly what is wrong with you? You take a basic statement that everyone but you understood and launch off on some wierd tangent that has nothing to do with the point you clearly missed.

"How can people deny the Holocaust?

I just dont get it. Its like me denying the war of 1812"

I post this, and from that you get that I am somehow comparing the severity of the two events? Thanks for trying to ram you sideways oppinion of MY post down MY throat but you continue to miss the point that everyone picked up on 2 hours ago.

Holocaust = Historical event I wasnt there for but am sure happened due to the documented evidence and witness accounts.

War of 1812 = Historical event I wasnt there for but am sure happened due to the documented evidence and witness accounts.

Wow...see what I did there?

[JiriHrdina]

Get back on topic guys rather than debating what Kipperfan meant in his original post.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Looger

i can think of one movie focusing on the Armenian genocide (ararat), is there one focusing on stalin's starving out of the ukraine?

I think the dirth of films on these subjects has more to do with the lack of Armenian or Ukranian filmmakers willing to make films about those tragedies then it does with popular interest.

There are just more Jewish filmakers and film investors who want to make films on the Shoa. (see Hollywoodism by Simcha Jacobovici)

Atom Eygoian is Armienian and chose to make Ararat and was able to get the funding for it after he had other film successes.

The Toronto Library has 60 books on the Armienian genocide, so it is not being ignored, it is just not being as hyped.

I think Ararat was a critical success, maybe it will insipre other filmmakers to approch the subject.

[SeeGeeWhy]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Look, I don't want to set off a firestorm, but I would suggest that the main reason people usually deny the holocaust is because it's convenient for them. People don't question it because it is "forced down their gullets"--they question it because they buy into a vast anti-semitic philosophy that includes paranoid fantasies of a Jewish conspiracy manipulating the media and the historical record for personal profit. I realize that other groups were persecuted in the holocaust--but holocaust denial is all about anti-semitism; end of story.

Bingo.

It is not tolerable that there are groups of people out there hellbent on erasing another group of people off the map. That is what makes this whole thing disgusting.

By denying the holocaust, one is essentially supporting the principles that were used to cause the actions of the holocaust in the first place.

Interesting point, bleeding red.

[North East Goon]

Why does Ahminyabijujubejad (sp? ) often refer to the second world war creating the state of Israel. Was it not the treaty of Versailles after WWI that created the state of Israel with the main backer of this being England? As far as I know, and correct me If I am wrong. Palestine land was created out of the Ottoman Empire's takeover of many nations including what was Jewish holy land or Israel as we know it today?

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by North East Goon

Why does Ahminyabijujubejad (sp? ) often refer to the second world war creating the state of Israel. Was it not the treaty of Versailles after WWI that created the state of Israel with the main backer of this being England? As far as I know, and correct me If I am wrong. Palestine land was created out of the Ottoman Empire's takeover of many nations including what was Jewish holy land or Israel as we know it today?

No it was after WWII.

"In 1947, following increasing levels of violence from groups such as Irgun and Lehi, uncontrollable immigration from Europe and general war-weariness, the British government decided to withdraw from the Palestine Mandate. The UN General Assembly approved the 1947 UN Partition Plan dividing the territory into two states, with the Jewish area consisting of roughly 55% of the land, and the Arab area roughly 45%. Jerusalem was planned to be an international region administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status.
Immediately following the adoption of the Partition Plan by the UN General Assembly on November 29, 1947, David Ben-Gurion tentatively accepted the partition, while the Arab League rejected it. The Arab Higher Committee immediately ordered a violent three-day strike on Jewish civilians, attacking buildings, shops, and neighborhoods, and prompting counter-attacks organized by underground Jewish militias like the Lehi and Irgun. These attacks soon turned into widespread fighting between Arabs and Jews, this civil war being the first "phase" of the 1948 War of Independence.
The State of Israel was proclaimed on May 14, 1948, one day before the expiry of the Palestine Mandate. Israel was admitted as a member of the United Nations on May 11, 1949."

[peter12]

Originally Posted by JimmytheT

In the face of undenialable physical and documentary (as in official documents, not film) evidence, thousands of survivor testimonials, not to mention testimonials of those who committed or saw the acts being committed, and some people still believe that the holocaust "never happened". What a joke.

Just a bunch of anti-semetic muslims and christians having a forum of non-sense.

Denying the holocaust is like denying the theory of gravity.

There's Jews there too.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Looger

here we have it, the EXACT reason so many people question the holocaust.

because it is forced down our gullets and manipulated to make everyone feel guilty for something that they did not do.

i can think of one movie focusing on the armenian genocide (ararat), is there one focusing on stalin's starving out of the ukraine?

every year there's more holocaust movies, holocaust memorials, and many people react strongly when focusing on all this.

personally i believe that the ADL and b'nai bri'ith (sp?) hype all this up because without anti-semitism, they are OUT OF BUSINESS. there's been plenty of independent investigations into where the money for anti-jewish hate groups come from, and it's VERY interesting sometimes.

i have a great book on this called 'the holocaust industry' by norman finkelstein. recommend it highly.

Dear lord, you're mental.

To be fair, the Balfour Declaration was what really created the State of Israel. Way before WW2.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Looger

because it is forced down our gullets and manipulated to make everyone feel guilty for something that they did not do.

i can think of one movie focusing on the armenian genocide (ararat), is there one focusing on stalin's starving out of the ukraine?

every year there's more holocaust movies, holocaust memorials, and many people react strongly when focusing on all this.

Nothing is forced down my gullet and I don't feel guilty about anything. The war ended 30 years before I was even born so I can't really feel like I had anything to do with it.

I don't know why the Armenian and Ukraine stories haven't been told. They should be. THey should have movies and memorials and the whole bit and we should all know about it. Why don't we?

[Fozzie_DeBear]

I read an interesting report on the Jews that attended this event.

I don't know ANYTHING about these guys, apparantly they are pretty much on the fringe of Israeli society. What I found interesting is that:

1) they had a chance to speak at the event and say point blank that the Holocaust happened and to marginalize it at all is wrong.

2) they are at the event to speak out against the way that the Zionist (no negative associations with the term, I just mean someone who wants an Israeli state, if I have misused the term my bad) agenda has been implemented. Basically, I think they have a problem that the Holocaust is used to justify certain actions, versus creating a Jewish state from a different paradigm...interesting

Also an interesting point that Holocaust denial is a crime in the US (true? what about Canada?). If true, we should be placing an * beside our belief in free speech.

Even though the holocaust did happen and people who deny it are so full of **** it amazes me.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

I read an interesting report on the Jews that attended this event.

I don't know ANYTHING about these guys, apparantly they are pretty much on the fringe of Israeli society. What I found interesting is that:

1) they had a chance to speak at the event and say point blank that the Holocaust happened and to marginalize it at all is wrong.

2) they are at the event to speak out against the way that the Zionist (no negative associations with the term, I just mean someone who wants an Israeli state, if I have misused the term my bad) agenda has been implemented. Basically, I think they have a problem that the Holocaust is used to justify certain actions, versus creating a Jewish state from a different paradigm...interesting

From what I understand, and as pointed out in the article, this sect believes that only G-d can bring about a 'state of Israel' and the Holocaust was the will of G-d. (reminds me of the sect of Christianity that will not accept medical treatment - if you are sick and G-d wants you to get better, you will, if not then it is G-d's will)

Also an interesting point that Holocaust denial is a crime in the US (true? what about Canada?). If true, we should be placing an * beside our belief in free speech.

Even though the holocaust did happen and people who deny it are so full of **** it amazes me.

There already is an asterix beside our freedom of speach. We cannot slander or libel someone, nor can we make verbal deaths threats without some consequence. I think the case is Canada is "spreading of false news or false information" not quite the outlawing of Holocaust deniel. Ernst Zundel was sent packing because he was deemed a security risk, not for promoting hate or holocaust deniel.

[JimmytheT]

Originally Posted by Delgar

How you can deny gravity but affirm the holocaust.... as someone less than 70 years old...is beyond me.

Its one thing to support a cause or belief. Its quite another to make something into something it is not.

Denying the holocaust has a lot of racial/religious permutations. But comparing that to denying gravity? Give your head a hard shake. If you still think that way, shake harder, rinse, repeat.

Denying the holocaust is related to a disliking of the creation of Israel.

Has nothing to do with science. (Kipperfan has it right-- its like denying the War of 1812-- we believe it because it has been historically documented.)

There's a lot of hate in the world, especially in the middle east. It is politically popular among many to deny a fundamental reason for the creation of the modern Israeli state.

I was making an analgogy in that they both have pretty much irrefutable evidence to support them. I was not making a direct comparisson. Give your head a shake.

And by the way, unrelated to the above quote, though their were other non-jewish victims of the holocaust, it is anti-semitism that fuels the holocaust deniers. There are virtually no deniers of the "Killing Fields" in 1970s Cambodia, the gov't induced famine and terror of the Stalinist regime in the Soviet Union, or the Armenian massacre by the Turks in the early 20th century, just to name other mass killings.

[JimmytheT]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Nothing is forced down my gullet and I don't feel guilty about anything. The war ended 30 years before I was even born so I can't really feel like I had anything to do with it.

I don't know why the Armenian and Ukraine stories haven't been told. They should be. THey should have movies and memorials and the whole bit and we should all know about it. Why don't we?

Go to a library and you can find hundreds of books and documentaries on those subjects you say have not been told.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by JimmytheT

Go to a library and you can find hundreds of books and documentaries on those subjects you say have not been told.

What's a library?

The point is that the story of the Armenian genocide and the Ukraine genocide obviously don't get the same level of attention as the holocaust does.

Maybe the story "has been told", but how many people know it? Now how many people know what the holocaust is?

[Jayems]

nm

[blankall]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

What's a library?

The point is that the story of the Armenian genocide and the Ukraine genocide obviously don't get the same level of attention as the holocaust does.

Maybe the story "has been told", but how many people know it? Now how many people know what the holocaust is?

I never understand arguments like this. Are you condemming jews for bringing attention to their cause? Its like you're saying that only so much informaiton can be learnt by the general public, and that if you know about one cause then you are automatically taking attention away from another. Just ridiculous, people seem to have enough room to learn about teh latest britanney gossip they can learn about more than one example of oppression w/out having to make one less well known.

If Armenians want to promote awareness of their genocide there is nothing stopping them from doing it. I have never once seen a holocaust exhibition or movie that tried to deny other forms of genocide. In fact, usually the opposite. Obviously an exhibit on the holocaust will focus on the jewish experience, because the experience was unique from other people who were harmed in the holocaust and the intention of the funders and promoters is to promote their ponit of view.

I don't see why general public knowlegde on on other forms of persecution has anything to do w/ holocaust denial. If anything jews should be rewarded for providing an effective model on how to raise awareness.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by blankall

I never understand arguments like this.

Take it up with someone else then, because I didn't make that argument. I don't disagree with the points made in your post. I asked a question.

[Calgaryborn]

It does concern me that one can get into legal trouble for
stating an opinion. Even if that opinion is wrong.

I do wonder about the emphasis on remembering the holocaust. I
mean other than getting our history right what purpose does it serve.
We[our Nation] haven't been willing to send our sons to stop any of
the more recent attempts at genocide. We might raise a protest if
the country in question isn't an important trading partner, but that's about it.