Blair breaks with Multiculturalism

[Muta]

My sentiment is that if you've committed to becoming a citizen of another country, there is a duty on your part to integrate yourself into their culture. Isolating yourself and shutting out from the rest of the social world doesn't benefit anybody or any party involved.

Arriving in a country, using that country's resources and deciding not to participate in that country's society and values, to me, is incredibly selfish. But at the same time, I do defend their right not to participate if they don't want to. There's just a moral / ethical obligation to do so to me, that's all.

In both countries I've lived in on opposite sides of the world, I've met way more people who choose to integrate themselves into that country's respective culture as opposed to not integrating. There's alot of interest and good discussion when you chat with foreigners from different parts of the world about their cultures / values and then compare and contrast, I find.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Mulitculturalism goes both ways.
I agree that immigrants should learn about the native culture and certainly learn English (excpet for maybe seniors), but the dominent culture here needs to be inclusive as well. If they don't facilitate an opportunity for new immigrants to integrate, it won't happen.

A lot of people don't want to accept new immigrant, especially visible minorities, so should it really be surprising that those people stick with others like themselves?

If some guy comes here from Asia, and gets stupid looks all the time for his accent, he's gonna go where people don't give him stupid looks.

If minorities get treated with racism (like the bar example), they aren't gonna feel very welcome and aren't gonna care about being like those people who don't even want them in this country.

There's people on both sides of the issue who polarize it, and that's when problems start.
Blair may have a point, but he(and England) should look in the mirror and try to understand how the seperation of cultures has happened there.
We in Canada, should learn from their mistakes and make sure it doesn't happen here. And that responsibility isn't solely on immigrants.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Mulitculturalism goes both ways.
I agree that immigrants should learn about the native culture and certainly learn English (excpet for maybe seniors), but the dominent culture here needs to be inclusive as well. If they don't facilitate an opportunity for new immigrants to integrate, it won't happen.

A lot of people don't want to accept new immigrant, especially visible minorities, so should it really be surprising that those people stick with others like themselves?

If some guy comes here from Asia, and gets stupid looks all the time for his accent, he's gonna go where people don't give him stupid looks.

If minorities get treated with racism (like the bar example), they aren't gonna feel very welcome and aren't gonna care about being like those people who don't even want them in this country.

There's people on both sides of the issue who polarize it, and that's when problems start.
Blair may have a point, but he(and England) should look in the mirror and try to understand how the seperation of cultures has happened there.
We in Canada, should learn from their mistakes and make sure it doesn't happen here. And that responsibility isn't solely on immigrants.

Agreed on all points. But while it's in a country's interest to embrace multiculturalism, it's ultimately up to the individual to integrate themselves. The country can be there to support them, but at some point the individual has to take the bigger step, realize that they're in a foreign environment, and make it happen to some degree on their own.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

I don't think that anyone there was protesting the islamic faith rather I can't help but think they were protesting these idiotic comments



Now it could just be my morals speaking but something tells me that those comments are despicable on every level and having someone protest that - even if it is through a bikini march is allright in my books. No one there is saying don't practice the islamic faith, rather they are stating that the blame for rape as in the case of Bilal Skaf can not be placed at the feet of the women.

With regards to what Blair said - having been to England for a couple months, what he said wasn't popular but it is what everyone is feeling right now. There is a significant racial divide between different ethnic groups which is leading to an increased crime rate (look at the rate of stabbings for instance). Accomidations need to be made on both sides when it comes to racial divides people need to be more accepting of the immigrants culture while at the same time the immigrant needs to step out and be more accepting of the cultures of the land where they now live.

I added that because it shows how one community leader is so far outside the mainstream culture that he felt it was a-ok to say such garbage. The fact that this man recieved so little condemnation from his own community is one of the reasons FOR this march.

As for Multiculturalism...its' time had come and gone. It had noble ideals of bringing everyone closer while respecting our differences. Unfortunately that is not what it as done. It has created gated communities and government programs weighted in favour of ethnic minorities instead of being used for the greater good of all.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by HOZ

As for Multiculturalism...its' time had come and gone. It had noble ideals of bringing everyone closer while respecting our differences. Unfortunately that is not what it as done. It has created gated communities and government programs weighted in favour of ethnic minorities instead of being used for the greater good of all.

It's that attitude that doesn't allow multiculturalism to work. If people don't want it to work, it won't. Simple

Gated communities are not a product of multiculturalism, they're a product of it's resistance.

And as for weighted programs, there's still a large gap in favour of the majority in most economic cases.
If these programs are designed to favour minorities at the expense of the majority, they havn't worked.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Gated communities are not a product of multiculturalism, they're a product of it's resistance.

I agree with this but it is gated resistance which both parties are guilty of that can not be ignored. It is a huge issue right now in Britain with what is turning into a large number of racially divided gangs (similar to what is in canada right now but on a much bigger scale).

[Flame On]

So how many of you speak Blackfoot?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Flame On

So how many of you speak Blackfoot?

There are some amongst the Blackfoot people themselves who can't speak their own language.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

I agree with this but it is gated resistance which both parties are guilty of that can not be ignored. It is a huge issue right now in Britain with what is turning into a large number of racially divided gangs (similar to what is in canada right now but on a much bigger scale).

yeah, both parties hold some resonsibilty for sure. People need to be given the opportunity, but certainly have to make the effort too.

England is very different from Canada IMO. I don't see Canada going in the same direction as them.
I've been to England 5-6 times and even as a kid I found the racial divide there stunning. I was pretty shocked at the way people really stick with their own.
Even within national groups, there is major divisions (i.e, sikhs and hindus and muslims) People seem to associate with mostly thier own and I found racial tension to be higher then it is here.
I think Englands history gives it distinct differences then Canada. There is a lot of racism in their history, and their immigration has come about in different ways then Canada.

I don't think it's a logical assertion to think that England now may be Canada in the future as some think.
I do however think gated communities is a major issue, and is a driving force behind racial tension.

[TheCommodoreAfro]

Originally Posted by HOZ

I added that because it shows how one community leader is so far outside the mainstream culture that he felt it was a-ok to say such garbage. The fact that this man recieved so little condemnation from his own community is one of the reasons FOR this march.

As for Multiculturalism...its' time had come and gone. It had noble ideals of bringing everyone closer while respecting our differences. Unfortunately that is not what it as done. It has created gated communities and government programs weighted in favour of ethnic minorities instead of being used for the greater good of all.

Hence your admiration and picking up the language and values of Japan (where you currently reside, IIRC).
I resent slapping down multiculturalism on a number of levels - the biggest being the brain cramps and overt racism that underlies the thought "Immigrate and blend in you mother****ers". The people who say this will always perceive difference in skin/religious colour, even if those who do are asked to integrate do exactly that. Besides, just who's ideal do you then squeeze into to become something you're not. I live here in Japan, speak, read and write the language, work in fairly senior position in a Japanese company here in Tokyo, and no matter how hard I try I will never be completely integrated into Japanese society. And that's fine for me - I never get to vote (Japan's a one-party state anyway), but that's a choice I made. To me, it's not about acting, looking or feeling a certain way, but it's about contributing something to society, or in a smaller sense, the company I work for. People I work for (in more senior positions) don't speak, read or write, but bring skills and perspective that contribute in a different, but no less important way to their communities, and our company. Friends of mine who teach at universities are prized for their differences and perspective. No diversity creates more misunderstanding in the long run. After all, if everyone we met shared exactly the same experiences, we'd never have a hope in hell of understanding anyone else in the world.

This is going to sound flaky - but multiculturalism is important to understand that there are differences between all people, and they should be respected, understood and tolerated insofar as they do what all good citizens do - obey the law and pay taxes (that's about it, really). If they can, they can do more. If not, what they do with the rest of their time is completely up to them.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by TheCommodoreAfro

Hence your admiration and picking up the language and values of Japan (where you currently reside).
I resent slapping down multiculturalism on a number of levels - the biggest being the brain cramps and overt racism that underlies the thought "Immigrate and blend in you mother****ers". The people who say this will always perceive difference in skin/religious colour, even if those who do are asked to integrate do exactly that.
The other extreme is the legalized racism that exists in other countries to those who are considered "outsiders". Multiculturalism, to me, is important to understand there are differences, and they should be respected and tolerated. A bit of a slippery slope argument, but a valid one, IMHO.

Trying to decide whether to answer the insult or overwhelming tar and feathering of anyone not pro multi-culti.

I will go with the insult. Quite obviously my 日本語能力試験二吸　doesn't stack up against your 一級. Though my Kansai-ban gets me by very nicely. And I don't need to be so pompous about it.

As for the values of Japan. Ummm...which one there 外人? I appreciate my friends and family here very much thank you.

++++++++++
Multiculturalism has had it's day. It has created more barriers now than it has ever torn down. People, communities, cities and countries come togethes because of commonalities, not differences.

And it doesn't make me or anyone else who has said that white-trailer-trash-knuckle dragger.

[TheCommodoreAfro]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Trying to decide whether to answer the insult or overwhelming tar and feathering of anyone not pro multi-culti.

I will go with the insult. Quite obviously my 日本語能力試験二吸　doesn't stack up against your 一級. Though my Kansai-ban gets me by very nicely. And I don't need to be so pompous about it.

As for the values of Japan. Ummm...which one there 外人? I appreciate my friends and family here very much thank you.

++++++++++
Multiculturalism has had it's day. It has created more barriers now than it has ever torn down. People, communities, cities and countries come togethes because of commonalities, not differences.

And it doesn't make me or anyone else who has said that white-trailer-trash-knuckle dragger.

Dude, at least get the "kyuu" kanji right (breathe in, breathe out). If you want pompous, that's a start. This wasn't about Japan, this was about perspective you shmuck. And unlike you, I don't like to make grand sweeping statements about things out of my realm of experience, that I'm not prepared to defend.
So then, my kansai-ben speaking friend, what ideal it is that people need to adopt to? Multiculturalism provides as much balance (and barrier) to society as a compulsion to blend in. And it's not like the leader in gated communities (the US) is a multicultural society anyway.
In any event, my favourite part of the post is where you make my point for me. What is the value, or the cultural norm you start with? Is it language? Blending in? Religion? Is there some kind of test on shared beliefs and knowledge? What, then, are the values you then have to comply to?
Maybe I'm a lazy ass, but I think it's easier to be pompous and let everyone just do what it is they want to do. Within the rule of law of the country, and as long as they pay taxes, of course.

[Flame On]

Originally Posted by Azure

There are some amongst the Blackfoot people themselves who can't speak their own language.

That's probably not by choice. Probably to do with economic realities. There's probably some illiteracey too but no one makes a decision to not read so as to not fit in.
You missed my point in any event.

[TheCommodoreAfro]

Originally Posted by HOZ君

As for Multiculturalism...its' time had come and gone. It had noble ideals of bringing everyone closer while respecting our differences. Unfortunately that is not what it as done. It has created gated communities and government programs weighted in favour of ethnic minorities instead of being used for the greater good of all.

This is what you believe. It isn't fact. Truthiness rules!

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by TheCommodoreAfro

This is what you believe. It isn't fact. Truthiness rules!

I doesn't come from books, it comes from the gut!

I'm no fan of reference books and their fact-based agendas.

Truthiness does rule!

[fanforever1986]

Originally Posted by TheCommodoreAfro

This is what you believe. It isn't fact. Truthiness rules!

haha! Colbert will have fun bragging about that one for the next...i dunno..2 years.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by TheCommodoreAfro

Dude, at least get the "kyuu" kanji right (breathe in, breathe out). If you want pompous, that's a start. This wasn't about Japan, this was about perspective you shmuck. And unlike you, I don't like to make grand sweeping statements about things out of my realm of experience, that I'm not prepared to defend.
So then, my kansai-ben speaking friend, what ideal it is that people need to adopt to? Multiculturalism provides as much balance (and barrier) to society as a compulsion to blend in. And it's not like the leader in gated communities (the US) is a multicultural society anyway.
In any event, my favourite part of the post is where you make my point for me. What is the value, or the cultural norm you start with? Is it language? Blending in? Religion? Is there some kind of test on shared beliefs and knowledge? What, then, are the values you then have to comply to?
Maybe I'm a lazy ass, but I think it's easier to be pompous and let everyone just do what it is they want to do. Within the rule of law of the country, and as long as they pay taxes, of course.

Breathe in breathe out.....will do. Wipe on - wipe off. All I need is the paint brush . And seriously the way the　浪速小母ーはん say it ...it sure sounds like BAN rather than ベン。

Sound pretty much we agree in priciple just not in terms.　Shockin....

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by TheCommodoreAfro

This is what you believe. It isn't fact. Truthiness rules!

No I just think you refuse to look past Political correctness.

Hey you back!　君

Canada must stand up for it's own values and culture

Steyn's context is the rise of militant Islam. And his controversial thesis is that, by appeasing Muslim extremists, we merely whet their appetite for world domination. "The more the Islamists step on our toes, the more we waltz them gaily around the room," he writes.
Many Canadians may take exception to this blunt language and its possibly incendiary rhetoric. But recent headlines lend some credence to the notion that Canadians may be, as another blog writer put it, "twisting themselves like pretzels, in order to be thought somehow sensitive to alien values."
A story out of Montreal told of how a community health clinic banned men from attending neonatal classes with their wives in order to avoid offending the sensibilities of Muslim, Sikh and Hindu women. We agree with Quebec politician Mario Dumont, the Action Democratique leader, that this prohibition "exceeds the limits of common sense." We'd go further and say it renders risible the guarantees contained in our Charter of Rights.

Can you guess which book I want for Christmas?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Flame On

That's probably not by choice. Probably to do with economic realities. There's probably some illiteracey too but no one makes a decision to not read so as to not fit in.
You missed my point in any event.

I don't think so.

I went to school with Blackfoot children....many of those do not 'choose' to speak their own tongue.

In other words they don't want to learn it.

[Cube Inmate]

Originally Posted by Azure

I'm sure even the dumbest Canadian realizes the political backlash that [dropping multiculturalism] would cause.

At this point, you're right. I wonder how public opinion would have changed, though, if the 17 conspirators in Toronto had been successful in blowing up whatever it was that they were planning to do?

Does anyone think Canada is likely to experience an event like London did?