Catholic School Board set to strike

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

As for salary, I think my dad topped out at ~ $50,000/year...and this is nearing 30 years of teaching, etc.

Better check again. After about 2 seconds of searching I found this site with info about teachers salaries.

http://www.education.gov.ab.ca/news/media/Salaries.asp

My buddies wife is a teacher and speaking with her I know she makes in the $50k range, and she's been a teacher for about 1.5 years.

Seems a teacher with 11+ years tops out between $75-80K.

Is this enough? I don't know. That's part of working for the government, you'll never make the really big bucks.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by fotze

Would you landmen review my AFE's already, its been 2 weeks, useless tits.

We like beer, and golfing.


Oh and I'm not a landman yet. Sucker.

edit:

Anyways back on topic, I should say that I think its the union that could be holding teachers back. Maybe.

Actually I really don't know what I'm talking about, but that sounded good in my head. Damn unions.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by fotze

Would you landmen review my AFE's already, its been 2 weeks, useless tits.

HEY!!! There is no such thing as a useless tit.

[rudd]

Teacher all know what they are getting into, its the Boards hidden agendas that teachers need to worry about. Public education looks scary right now when classroom sizes are up to 35 kids per class.

The classroom sizes are determined right now by:
Formula : ALL staff in the school divided by # of students. This includes librarian, secretary, VP, AP and JANITORS!!! The stats are VERY misleading and you wont ever be shown this formula anywhere else...

I think a lot of the "overpaid teachers" talk comes from the notion that teachers' hours match up with students' hours: Put in six hours a day, head home around 2 PM, and take summers off. Compared to most jobs, that's scarcely working, right?
Hello--news flash! Classroom time is only the tip of the pencil for a teacher. No one just walks into a roomful of kids without a plan and keeps them fruitfully occupied for six hours at a stretch, day after day. Lesson plans have to be drawn up. There go your weekends.
Then there's homework. If you have 25 kids in your class, and each one turns in one page of homework a day, you have 25 pages to read and mark before tomorrow. There go your evenings.
Furthermore, you have meetings to attend--with other teachers, curriculum experts, administrators, and parents. Plus, when kids bring their life problems into the classroom--and they're human, so they do--who ends up dealing with them? That's right, the teacher. It's not in the job description, but a teacher's obligations inevitably overlap with those of social workers, therapists, and even parents.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

So with all those problems.....they don't deserve more personal time eh?

I don't know. But its not a matter of what is deserved - it's a matter of what is realistic for that profession.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

It is easy to talk like that.....but when all the teachers decide that it isn't worth it.....so much for our education system.

Well as of now there are still a lot of young teachers that struggle to find full time employment, so there seems to be more folks that want to be teachers then jobs. And I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

There are good teachers and there are bad teachers.....just like any proffession. I for one would rather pay these people what they are worth as our children are the most important resources we have.....but if some of you want to cheap out on this.....be prepared for the consequences.

So what are they worth?

Unfortunately our world doesn't work that way. You are not paid based on your contribution to society at large. You are paid based on how valuable your skill is to the bottom line and how easy/hard it is to find people will that skill.

Maybe that's not how the world should work, but that's a much larger discussion.

My point is simply that none of this should be a surprise to anyone going into the teaching profession. So either put up with it, or find a different career path that is more suited to your priorities.

[Crazy Flamer]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Most careers do.

If you are becoming a teacher do you not know what you are getting into?

Couldn't agree more. My girlfriend is now a third year teacher and its been very stressful for her.

There is SSOOO much prep work its not even funny. She's usually at school by 8:30am and usually doesn't leave untill about 5:30 or 6:00pm. she will usually bring marking home with her to do that night. She usually does work on the weekends as well.

It's also extremely difficult being a new teacher. She's taught all different grade levels in each of her three years teaching. So each year, there is different prep work to do. You can't count on the lesson plans from last year as if you were teaching the same grade over and over again.

That being said, I think most careers have hefty work loads when you start out. Teaching is no exception. And there are weeks where she works the regular 40 hours, Plus she gets two weeks off for Chrismas, a week of for Easter and two months off for the summer. She always complains that she works so hard and she gets mad at me when I tell her its not that much different than any other career when you first start out.

There are times where I'm glad I'm not her, there are times when I envy her. It goes both ways I guess.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Better check again. After about 2 seconds of searching I found this site with info about teachers salaries.

http://www.education.gov.ab.ca/news/media/Salaries.asp

My buddies wife is a teacher and speaking with her I know she makes in the $50k range, and she's been a teacher for about 1.5 years.

Seems a teacher with 11+ years tops out between $75-80K.

Is this enough? I don't know. That's part of working for the government, you'll never make the really big bucks.

huh well fair enough...my dad has been out of teaching for ~ 5 years or so, so that may have had something to do with it. But to the best of my knowledge, he was around 50 - 55, tops. If I am wrong, I take it back.

Also, I should add, that that we were out in the country/rural Alberta. So that may have had an influence on things. Because I can tell you, there is no way in heck my dad was making 75 grand. No way.

[redforever]

I am a former teacher as well. Yes, teachers are public employees, so we will not make the big bucks like many will in the public sector.

But, dont forget, and maybe some are not aware of this, you are not paid for the time you are off during the summer months. You do however get paid for professional days etc.

Now, take the salaries being quoted here and average them over a 10 month period, the pay per month is ok. Teachers voted a long time ago to have their remuneration divided over 12 months. Dont forget, you might not get paid for the 2 months you are off over the summer months, but you still have to live. And yes, some do have side jobs during the summer months to boost their income a bit. And yes, some do correct provincial exams for extra money too. But that is extra work, over and above their teaching contract, they should be paid for that like anyone else would be.

And yes, there are hours put into preparation of classes, into correcting assignments and the like, every teacher is expected to take on certain extra curricular activities, there are countless hours teachers work that are outside of classroom hours.

And the job is very stressful. Yes, I know there is much stress in the private sector too, especially Calgary and the oil patch. But I will give you a perspective of where more stress comes from today, compared to when I taught.

For one thing, when I taught, outside resources for teachers were a given, not a bonus or an extra, for the large part, they were a given in most schools!!! I taught mainly in Junior High School and I would wager, that out of Elementary, Junior and High School, the Grade 7, 8 and 9 years are the most stressful, especially that Grade 8 year. For those of you who either are in the throes with teenagers or have gone through the throes of teenagers, which years were the hardest? I think that 14 is one of the most difficult years for children to go through and therefore anyone else who has to deal with them ie: parents, teachers, coaches, etc

Let me list some of the resources that were a given when I taught, and this would be 70's probably up to say the mid 80's. We had guidance counsellors within our school, every day of the week, 2 of them, one male, one female. So kids could have someone to talk to, teachers could have someone to talk to.

We had a full time librarian and 2 library assistants.

We had public health people that were in the school at least half time, helping with things like nutrition, personal grooming, changes you experience at puberty etc.

We had learning assistants as needed and required depending on what the needs of the students were yearly. It was easy to get kids diagnosed if they had learning difficulties, well perhaps not "easy", but at least the process and people were available if you needed to draw on their assistance.

We had a budget that could be used towards learning materials, textbooks were a given, not something that parents bought for their children as is too often the case today.

We had an administrative staff that supported its teachers. And we had an office staff that supported the administration and the teachers.

AND we had on the whole, parents who supported the teachers as well. Today, we have "super" parents, and of course these "super" parents are under the impression that their Johnny or their Jane is the "perfect", "super" kid. And by gosh and golly, dont you be thinking of disciplining my perfect child because I am gonna be breathing down your neck, you can count on that!!! Yes, there is discipline and there is abuse, but by and large, for the most part, teachers are able to discipline your children without abusing them.

And teachers got respect. They got respect from the kids they taught, by and large, they got respect from the parents of the kids and by and large, they got respect from the community at large. Take a look at some of the comments above, how much respect do teachers have in society today? Yes, you have to earn your respect, but too many are biased by the fact they think teachers have it so easy, with so much time on their hands, they should just be thankful we throw a little crumb their way.

Why are teachers so stressed? Why do they want to bargain for fewer hours in the classroom? Take a look at just some of the services that I mentioned above and see which ones are still there for teachers to access today? Not many, huh? Like I say, take a moment and think why our teachers are stressed and burned out.

And tossing money at things is not necessarily always the solution. If teachers earned more money, would they be happier? Probably. Enough to stop complaining and asking for other services? I doubt it. But I bet you, if teachers were offered some of the services and respect that I got as a teacher, combined with fair salary increases, they would be pretty darned happy. Now I am not advocating just rolling over and say give them everything they want. I am just saying, keep an open eye, dont judge until you know the whole picture of what it is like to be a teacher.

Are there bad teachers? Absolutely. Are there bad employees within the private sector? Absolutely. Is it easy to dismiss bad teachers. No, it is not. That is one bone of contention I will say needs to be addressed as presently, too often the problem teacher never gets dealt with, and instead is just shuffled around within the system. In this regard, the private sector is more easily able to deal with those who for some reason or other are not fitting into their company. And too often, the teachers' union is far too political. Yes they say it never reaches the classroom, but it does, not with every teacher, but it definitely does with some. Just as we say politics does not belong in the bedroom of its citizens, so should politics not belong in the education of its children.

Dont forget, we are teaching your children, we are teaching our hopes for the future. Surely you want your children to be in a happy environment, that is conducive to learning, just like a happy home environment is conducive to learning. Meet the teachers half way, if there is a problem, visit the teacher, then visit other people if the issue does not resolve itself. Most teachers are very approachable. If parents come in with the same attitude, there should be very few problems that can not be resolved without further intervention.

PS, I forgot to add that in all the years I taught within the Calgary Public School system, I never had more than 24 children in my classroom!!!

[JiriHrdina]

^^^Excellent post. To be frank, if the teachers spent more time and energy fighting for more resources for the kids I'd be more inclined to support their position. But it always seems to come down primarily to money.

[Table 5]

so now, may I ask, with all the money and resources that so many examples in this forum indicate is needed in the educational system, do people here still feel the Ralphbucks were a proper way for the provincial government to spend 2 billion dollars?

[Table 5]

but the "brutal cuts" actually had a long-term vision though which more or less made sense. in the end, it saved this province a lot of money that it could spend on other priorities.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Table 5

but the "brutal cuts" actually had a long-term vision though which more or less made sense. in the end, it saved this province a lot of money that it could spend on other priorities.

Yes, they had a long term vision, to reduce the debt and the deficit. Nothing wrong with that.

BUT, within education and health, unfortunately, the cuts were born by the kiddies and those who are ill, not by all the levels of bureaucracy and there are many levels within the department of health and the department of education.

Money should be kept with those who provide the services, not with those who decide who will provide the services. Yes we need some with a vision, so we get the most bang for our buck, but the money still should be focused so that it follows those who provide the actual services.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by redforever

Money should be kept with those who provide the services, not with those who decide who will provide the services. Yes we need some with a vision, so we get the most bang for our buck, but the money still should be focused so that it follows those who provide the actual services.

I don't disagree, which is one of the reasons I brought this up. I would have liked to see some of the Ralphbuck money go into the educational system (both K12 and post-secondary). I'm not someone who needs it at the moment (I'm post-college, plus I dont have kids), but I can definitely see the long-term effects a healthy educational system will have on our future.

I'm a big believer in thinking that educated people return the favour to society exponentially down the line. Spending money on educating people will always be a good thing.

A healthier educational system = better teachers going into the field = better classes = better prepared students in the real world = less need for handouts + increased income tax and for the government.

[Antithesis]

I am currently a teacher. It's nice to hear some support for us in this thread but I also thought that I would clear up some misconceptions about my colleagues and our profession.

Our teaching time is indeed 28 hours per week, but that is literally the time we spend teaching students. That exludes things like prep work, which for me, at this point in my career, amounts to a minimum of about 1 hour for every hour I spend teaching. If, for example, you added 2 hours of teaching time to my week, it would actually increase my work load by 4 hours per week. People need to understand that the lessons we teach to students don't prepare themselves.

If anyone has ever gone through collective bargaining as a part of a professional association or union, then you know that it is really difficult to get a clause back in to your agreement. If this "classroom hours" clause is removed, then there is no maximum teaching time, which there needs to be, I'm sorry, but it's true. If that clause is removed, it's probably not going back in.

On top of the prep work, there is the required grading and marking. Every assignment I take in, I really need to expect at least 30 minutes to grade and record the marks on that assignment, but it is usually more like an hour. I teach five classes, and I grade at least two assignments per class a week. That's 10 hours of work right there on top of the prep time, and the teaching time, to total about 66 hours per week as it is right now.

Just like those who work in private business, we have meetings too, that take away from our personal time, our preparation time, and all of those things. Weekly meetings add to our work load as well. Often times, those meetings also add to your work load in other ways ... committees, planning groups, etc.

This is, of course, completely neglecting the fact that we are all expected (though not paid for) organizing and running extra-curricular activities. I coached volleyball this year. For a period of two months, I had four days a week where, on top of the work load I've already quoted, I had to coach, practice, supervise, and travel to and from games for an average of 16 hours a week or so. Not only are there the games but the fact that the kids on your team need to be supervised, and anyone who has ever hung out with 10+ teenagers knows, they don't supervise themselves and do need near constant attention. This means that while I am supervising them before games or practices (because there are other teams that need the gymnasium as well) I am not grading, preparing lessons or tests, or really doing any work. Not to mention that students need rides home, and as we are responsible for these children while they are at school, I can not leave until all of them leave or are picked up. This adds as well.

As well, there are many, many students that have special needs and must have those needs accomodated within the classroom. Special materials planned for them, special lessons, which of course all add time to your load.

One lunch period a week (and those at my school are lucky to get away just with this) I give up my lunch hour to supervise students at their lunch time. That means every Friday, I get a grand total of a 10 minute stretch where I have a break ... while supervising students.

This all also neglects the fact that teaching, unlike many desk jobs, doesn't allow you to take those little "un-written" breaks throughout the day - to hop here on CP, stop by a friend's desk to speak with them, go for a walk, heck, even go to the bathroom.

Tests? Those don't make themselves. Experiments don't prepare themselves.

Those are just the time commitments. There's also so many other stressors that go into the job on top of all of this:

- Parents who contact you automatically assuming that their child's problems are completely caused by you
- Children misbehaving, being disrespectful, causing problems in class (of course, its never their fault).
- So many more that I won't bother you with.

For many of my students, for whatever reason, I am the only positive adult influence they have in their lives. For some of them, I am sure I am like some kind of substitute Dad. It doesn't say so in our job description, but I promise you, part of my job is to help these students through their lives outside of school as well.

While this may seem like one long whine-fest, I have to say that I find my job very rewarding and that I love it. There are many plusses, the vacations being one of them, but trust me, they are both earned and needed. I knew what I was getting into when I decided to become a teacher, but that doesn't mean that it's not stressful. Just because there is a clause in my bargained agreement that says I need to teach 'only' 28 hours a week doesn't mean I don't work well over double that per week.

Lastly, I like many of you disagree with strike action as a way to resolve bargaining issues as it only hurts the students, and I am thankful that to this point in my career I haven't had to experience such a thing from the teacher side. I pray I never have to.

[Antithesis]

Oh, and yes, I am posting during the day, but today is one of those lucky days where I have the combination of Early Dismissal and no meetings. Huzzah!

[redforever]

Originally Posted by fotze

Well then I think teachers need to take lessons from U of C professors on teaching and prepping for class.

Take overheads from previous year and photocopy. Read overheads. Repeat as necessary.

Really, this is just such a flippant remark. I know you probably meant it facetiously, but it is flippant none the less.

You of course assume that curriculum never changes, nor does the teachers' approach change to teaching the curriculum based on the learning needs and styles of their students.

[redforever]

One lunch period a week (and those at my school are lucky to get away just with this) I give up my lunch hour to supervise students at their lunch time. That means every Friday, I get a grand total of a 10 minute stretch where I have a break ... while supervising students.

AHHHHHH yes, how could I have forgotten lunch room duty in my previous post. You have not lived until you have had that pleasure with 500 hyper kids who have been sitting all morning and are ready to unwind. Oh the smells, the noise, the buzz in the air, how could I have forgotten!!!

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Fair enough... though again, how much do they actually get paid? What are they're annual pay increases? What is the cap for a teacher's salary? How much do they get paid 'per hour' when calculating all the extra time they put in. And honestly, why shouldn't they be paid well to reflect the vitally important role they play in society. I can't think of many more necessary occupations than guiding virtually every youngster in the country through their formative learning years. If anything we should be re-thinking exactly how many resources/money to be investing in education and ramping it up... I think the return on investment in that industry can make or break the intellectual future of the country.

I hear what you're saying about them constantly striking, but maybe they're constantly underpaid/underappreciated/under-supported?

Does anyone know the actual #'s of teacher's pay for Separate/Public systems in Alberta?

Plain and simple, teachers are paid based on their education and number of years of teaching experience. No matter how good the teacher, no matter how bad, you all get paid the same, and the raise every year is paid the same way, all based on years of education and teaching experience. There is a base when you come in, and there is a cap you reach.

And it is the union who is resisting any change to this. I guess in general, the union is the teachers, but as a former teacher who had nothing to fear, who welcomed parents and administration in their classroom at any time, I would have nothing to fear about further evaluation that would result in further pay deemed by merit. There have been all kinds of suggestions and reports concluding that a merit system should be part of the pay structure. And of course, in the same vein, there have been all kinds of rebuttals as to why that would not be fair as well.