My FIX for the CFL

[Frank the Tank]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Tunder Bay is too isolated. Same with the Sault. Cant see that market supporting a team as there is no community close by...just Tunder Bay.
If another team camer to Ontario it would have to be Suthn Ontario...KW is 500,000 people...London is 600,000. Someone mentioned Windsor, but I dont think theyd support it as Detroit is right across the river and Id assume they go to Lions games....but then with the Lions as suckage maybe theyd draw Lions fans across the border? LOL
As to Saskatoon...many here think that Regina draws a ton of Tooners to its games...but thats not true.

There are only 350,000 people in London Cheese. I don't think we could ever support a CFL franchise.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Frank the Tank

There are only 350,000 people in London Cheese. I don't think we could ever support a CFL franchise.

LOL...well damn...thought you guys were bigger than that! Fine...you dont deserve a team then! WAIT...Regina is only 250 grand or so...Winterpeg is only 400k I think. Your back in!

WAIT

Check this census...you are over 400 my man. 432 as of 2001.
http://www.demographia.com/db-cancma.htm

[Frank the Tank]

Originally Posted by Cheese

LOL...well damn...thought you guys were bigger than that! Fine...you dont deserve a team then! WAIT...Regina is only 250 grand or so...Winterpeg is only 400k I think. Your back in!

WAIT

Check this census...you are over 400 my man. 432 as of 2001.
http://www.demographia.com/db-cancma.htm

Well they need to update the damn signs in this city!!

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I guess my question is this- would those areas be able to support 2 teams? Up until last season Toronto and Vancouver were at the bottom of the league for attendance; often just getting 20K people into the 50K capacity stadiums.

Because of the locations of each stadiums (downtown, waterfront) they are in essence not drawing the the full capacity of the City.

It is highly unlikely someone in Burnaby would drive/train it to see the lions, they may be a TV watcher but not a paying seat.

I believe the only reason their arent currently two teams in each of those cities is TV money, like in Buffalo the reason their wont be a NFL franchise in TO is the Bills.

This also creates instant rivalries and increases TV coverage in each of those markets - 2 of the 3 biggest in Canada.

MYK

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Id put a team in kitchener waterloo or london before another in toronto....and on the wet coast Id put one in Victoria. I think even Saskatoon would support a rivalry with Regina.
My first two expansion teams would be Halifax and Quebec...and serious consideration to kitchener or London.

I would make the cfl a farm system of the NFL with a clause to allow 50% of rosters to be filled by Canadian players.

I thought about Victoria but I envisioned that to be about the same as a team in Ott.

Saskatoon is more of a team 13 14 as it doesnt add to TV viewership enough to justify the negative effects on the Riders "sask" aura.

Quebec city I think is ripe for the CFL, the problem is stadium.

I wouldnt make the CFL and NFL farm team, most Canadians outside of Calgary/Lethbridge/Red Deer are very weary of anything American. I think the current deal with the NFL is fine and I think the NFL would be more than happy to shut down NFL Europe if the CFL had a few more teams.

Also to turn the CFL into an NFL farm Team would take too much away from the game (field size etc) There are some rules in the CFL I hate, the 1 point for missed field goal or punt etc.

MYK

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Because of the locations of each stadiums (downtown, waterfront) they are in essence not drawing the the full capacity of the City.

It is highly unlikely someone in Burnaby would drive/train it to see the lions, they may be a TV watcher but not a paying seat.

I believe the only reason their arent currently two teams in each of those cities is TV money, like in Buffalo the reason their wont be a NFL franchise in TO is the Bills.

This also creates instant rivalries and increases TV coverage in each of those markets - 2 of the 3 biggest in Canada.

MYK

Nah I dont buy that. I know people who drive from North of Toronto to watch CFL...or even out here in KW. In Vancouver they hop on their monorail and get from Surrey area downtown in no time. Lots of people do it.
If the NHL wont do it the CFL could never support it.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

I would broker a deal with the NFL and eventually ESPN/TSN. We would become a developmental league for them with secure financing in place for every team. Plus the money to upgrade all the stadiums. Bring in the NFL expertise with advertising/marketing etc. and a consistent brand of football.

Good stadiums and a well run league -- Fans would forget the Mickey Mouse CFL version dang near instantly.

The problem is the same problem the AHL has, its seen as nothing more than a proving ground.

The CFL has their own distinct rules and has had them for a long time.

You would kill all positives the CFL has going for it with a migration to the NFL. Also with the creation of an official tie with the NFL the NFLPA would then get witht he CFL players and the economics of the game in Canada would be shot. If you charge much more than $200/season ticket in the CFL you kill it.

Toronoto and Vancouver have to be able to support two teams given the proximity of the stadiums. It would be like if the Stamps had their stadium in Chapparral, at that point you could easily put another team in Calgary in the NW.

500K people is more than enough to support the CFL given the appropriate stadium size, but putting a second team in Toronto and Vancouver increases TV revenue as well as buts in the seats revenue. Putting a second team in TO and Van also gives confidence to your boradcast partners that you want to help them.

As per TSN/CBC - There are currently two separate contracts, TSN bid for all the games but CBC bid for the Playoffs, TSN would have won but the CFL went to CBC and said you have to broadcast 1 Saturday game a week for the whole season. Before CBC started their Saturday coverage durring Labour Day.

MYK

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Nah I dont buy that. I know people who drive from North of Toronto to watch CFL...or even out here in KW. In Vancouver they hop on their monorail and get from Surrey area downtown in no time. Lots of people do it.
If the NHL wont do it the CFL could never support it.

How many people in Medicne Hat/Cochrane/Airdie drive to Stamps games as a season ticket holder. If its more than 100 I would be very surprised.

Same in Edmonton with Leduc, Sherwood Park, St Albert - I would give Edmonton a higher number simply because those towns are alot closter but you get the idea. Me and my dad had season tix to the Esks for about 2 years until we got tired of the 75 minute drive + we had to get their at least an hour before to get parking.

I think the reason you get average 15-20K people in Toronoto in Vancouver is that simple. Middle class Canadians are the bread and butter of the CFL, not people who live in high rise condos. The stadium placement in Vancouver and Toronto are both on the edges of the city which doesnt do much for people who live burbs.

We will agree to disagree but what do you think the reason is for Chicago having two MLB franchises or NY having two. Agreed they are much larger markets but the same principle still applies.

Its just my own personal pipe dream anyways, no normal business person would buy the CFL outright, even if they had the desire, I dont know how the community owned teams would react.

MYK

[moon]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

How many people in Medicne Hat/Cochrane/Airdie drive to Stamps games as a season ticket holder. If its more than 100 I would be very surprised.

I would be shocked if there weren't more than 100 people from Airdrie and Cochrane who were season ticket holders. Hell I wouldn't be that surprised to find out there 100 from Airdrie alone.

Medicine Hat/Lethbridge/Red Deer and you may have a point but the drive from Airdire and Cochrane certainly wouldn't deter people from going to the game in my view.

[Bench Warmer]

Originally Posted by moon

I would be shocked if there weren't more than 100 people from Airdrie and Cochrane who were season ticket holders. Hell I wouldn't be that surprised to find out there 100 from Airdrie alone.

Medicine Hat/Lethbridge/Red Deer and you may have a point but the drive from Airdire and Cochrane certainly wouldn't deter people from going to the game in my view.

There might be more Rider season ticket holders in Medicine Hat (there are a few) than Stamps season ticket holders. Either way, it's not a significant amount.

Interesting concept. The only way I think this works though is if the league drops it's talent and salaries to be able to break even getting 20,000 / game. Most of the CFL cities would hugely outdraw that but I can't see more than that going to games if you split BC and TO into 2 teams. These are cities not too far removed from near extinction due to poor attendance. Ottawa's never been able to support their team before - I don't see this changing in a bigger league. Halifax and Quebec would be cool and would support if they had stadiums.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

How many people in Medicne Hat/Cochrane/Airdie drive to Stamps games as a season ticket holder. If its more than 100 I would be very surprised.

Same in Edmonton with Leduc, Sherwood Park, St Albert - I would give Edmonton a higher number simply because those towns are alot closter but you get the idea. Me and my dad had season tix to the Esks for about 2 years until we got tired of the 75 minute drive + we had to get their at least an hour before to get parking.

I think the reason you get average 15-20K people in Toronoto in Vancouver is that simple. Middle class Canadians are the bread and butter of the CFL, not people who live in high rise condos. The stadium placement in Vancouver and Toronto are both on the edges of the city which doesnt do much for people who live burbs.

We will agree to disagree but what do you think the reason is for Chicago having two MLB franchises or NY having two. Agreed they are much larger markets but the same principle still applies.

Its just my own personal pipe dream anyways, no normal business person would buy the CFL outright, even if they had the desire, I dont know how the community owned teams would react.

MYK

Well...in reality Toronto draws 20-25,000 fans because they are more of an NFL city. Many actually have seasons ticks to the Bills and drive down for that. Vancouver is just...well the parallel I draw is that of LA...it doesnt have NFL either.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

How many people in Medicne Hat/Cochrane/Airdie drive to Stamps games as a season ticket holder. If its more than 100 I would be very surprised.

I would think that people who live in Cochrane probably have an easier drive to McMahon than a lot of people in the far south.

I work with guy whose brother lives in Lethbridge and has Stamps season tickets. He doesn't always make it to the weeknight games early in the season, but after Labour Day all the games are on the weekend, so it isn't really a problem to get to those games from a couple of hours away.

[Sylvanfan]

What about the CFL season, do you like it starting in June and going thru summer when half the country is on vacation, or spending a month at the lake cottage? Our climate is a too cold to start the league in September, but I do wonder if they were to start the season in August and reduce it back to 16 games if it would work? Seems like crowds and interest in the league seem to pick up in September as thats when it feels like football seasson. Only problem would be that you'd be looking at playoff games close to Christmas.

[Antithesis]

I've always liked the way the CFL schedule was set up. If anything, I'd actually like it to start a little earlier in the year.

[KTown]

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

you keep saying this but why would you want to fold a league and toronto will never get an nfl team, if the cfl were to fold the nfl would never come to a country that couldnt support its own game. a toronto team would not have the atmosphere that the nfl teams get becuase canada is a different country and i understand the atmospher and tailgating experience at nfl games i very important to you. if you want this type of fan support its up to people to change, not the type of football.

I should have made my post look more sarcastic, sorry about that.

I'm from Ontario, and the NFL will thrive in Toronto. Everybody there is an NFL fan, not many CFL fans, growing up there and going to high school if we weren't talking hockey, we were talking NFL, NFL is huge there. Trust me.

Most Southern Ontario fans are Bills fans, not Argos fans or Ticats fans. If you had the choice to cheer for the best athletes in the world you'd do it. Unfortunately here we don't, we got the Seattle Seacocks, who are what a 14hr drive away. The bills are 1.5 hours from TO, 45 minutes from Hamilton and 2.5hrs from K-W area (where I'm from)

The man reason the NFL won't come here anytime soon is because the CFL and NFL have an agreement, isn't something like the NFL must give the CFL 3 million to sign a cfl Option player. I believe the agreement runs out this year.

If you see lots of success in the NFL game that will be played in TO, you can bet in our lifetime there will be an NFL franchise in TO.

Southern Ontario people are spolied they have the best athletes for every sport in North America that counts except football.

NHL, NBA, and MLB, there not gonna waste there time and money on a second rate product too them, the NFL exposure in souther ontario is huge.

I'm sorry I threw this thread off topic.

Unfortunately anybody with 5 billion and a decent business sense would do what I suggested and not re-build the CFL, however it's fantasy and everybody has a dream.

This is my two cents.

[Cheese]

The NFL will NOT be in Toronto in the next 20 years let alone the near future.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

How many people in Medicne Hat/Cochrane/Airdie drive to Stamps games as a season ticket holder. If its more than 100 I would be very surprised.

You seriously did not lump Cochrane and Airdrie in with Medicine Hat in this comparison did you?

It is about 4-4.5 hours from Medicine Hat to McMahon. You can get there from Airdrie in about 30 minutes, and about 25 from Cochrane.

Both Airdrie and Cochrane are closer to McMahon than Midnapore, Cranston, MacKenzie Towne, etc.

I would be collossally surprised if the number of people who go to Stamps and Eskimo games from the suburbs are anything less than the low thousands for both teams.

[vanisleflamesfan]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Id put a team in kitchener waterloo or london before another in toronto....and on the wet coast Id put one in Victoria. I think even Saskatoon would support a rivalry with Regina.
My first two expansion teams would be Halifax and Quebec...and serious consideration to kitchener or London.

I would make the cfl a farm system of the NFL with a clause to allow 50% of rosters to be filled by Canadian players.

I just don't think that would work at all. There are only about 350,000 ppl in the greater Victoria area. Even if you include Nanaimo (second biggest city on the island), that is only 70,000 more people, and for them, it is either an hour by car to Vic, or an hour by ferry to Van, so that market would be split. Also, Victoria isn't bursting with the demographic that the CFL wants... broke university students, 80 year olds, and transient squeegy kids are not exactly a prime football market!

Additionally, I have no idea where you would build a stadium.

[GeoffSK]

How about some northern smaller market US cities in Wyoming, Montana, North or South Dakota.

To solve the canadian ratio problem with the expansion last time, have a certain amount on roster spots that must be filled with players that were football trained in the state of the team.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

How many people in Medicne Hat/Cochrane/Airdie drive to Stamps games as a season ticket holder. If its more than 100 I would be very surprised.

Same in Edmonton with Leduc, Sherwood Park, St Albert - I would give Edmonton a higher number simply because those towns are alot closter but you get the idea. Me and my dad had season tix to the Esks for about 2 years until we got tired of the 75 minute drive + we had to get their at least an hour before to get parking.

I think the reason you get average 15-20K people in Toronoto in Vancouver is that simple. Middle class Canadians are the bread and butter of the CFL, not people who live in high rise condos. The stadium placement in Vancouver and Toronto are both on the edges of the city which doesnt do much for people who live burbs.

We will agree to disagree but what do you think the reason is for Chicago having two MLB franchises or NY having two. Agreed they are much larger markets but the same principle still applies.

Its just my own personal pipe dream anyways, no normal business person would buy the CFL outright, even if they had the desire, I dont know how the community owned teams would react.

MYK

it's tough to move the lions or argos out of downtown becuase no matter what burb you pick, for each community you are closer to, there is one that you are now further from. Besides most burbs won't have the infrastructure to handle a stadium, and oh ya, the CFL economics do not in any way support the building of a stadium in the first place.

As for two teams per market, there is no way that could ever work. your US model is about 1. Markets with 7Mil plus, a stronger culture to support professional sport, way more disposable income per person, and a successful business model in the MLB and NFL.

I think the future, if it includes growth is to be a NFL2. We'll lose our game but oh well. 5 years after nobody would know the difference. (ie Scoring in the NCAA is higher than the CFL)