Vancouver's safe injection site successful: study

[Hakan]

The reasons things have gotten worse certainly are not from the safe injection site.

Since the BC Liberals have been in power they have reduced social assistance, housing assistance, funding for shelters and funding for mental illness facilities.

The results? An unprecedented increase in homelessness and addiction.

Also, Niewy, addiction is a mental illness not a choice.

[eazyduzzit]

Originally Posted by Hakan

Also, Niewy, addiction is a mental illness not a choice.

Those who chose that rout....err CHOSE....

Certainly where not "mentaly ill" before they chose to pick up the crack, the meth or whatever else.

We are tought time and time again, drugs are not the rout to go down and it will lead to bad things. If you ignore this and go down that rout anyway, clearly you chose it.

[Hakan]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

Those who chose that rout....err CHOSE....

Certainly where not "mentaly ill" before they chose to pick up the crack, the meth or whatever else.

We are tought time and time again, drugs are not the rout to go down and it will lead to bad things. If you ignore this and go down that rout anyway, clearly you chose it.

Good analysis. Can't argue with that. Jeez. I should go tell that guy I worked with in the DTES two years ago that he shouldn't have chosen to be in a sawmill accident that left him addicted to opiates.

Or that other kid I worked with that was abused by his father in Prince George for 5 years, ran away, found himself on the streets of the DTES with a bunch of junkies snorted smack because he didn't know any better and is now hopelessly addicted? He sure was in the right frame of mind to make healthy decisions.

Your post stinks.

[eazyduzzit]

You have a point, but so do i.

Either way, it's not a mental illness.

I know people who have went through ups and down in their life, some who have went through really bad times. I myself have had my share. I grew up with people who ran away from home, as well as having friends get kicked out of the house - having to spend time living with other friends or spend time on the streets.

My point is, you don't solve problems with drugs, and if you chose to do that, thats not my problem but your choice

[Hakan]

http://www.psych.org/edu/other_res/l...ves/196602.pdf

Narcotic addiction is primarily a medical as well as a social and psychological problem.

Narcotic addiction is a chronic condition. Growing evidence indicates that some narcotic addicts can be successfullv treated and that relapses do not necessarily indicate therapeutic failure. <insert need for safe injection site here>

Social and legal complications have interfered with understanding, research, and treatment. <ie people like nieuwy who are intolerant of alternative policies and research to understand and treat addiciton>

[eazyduzzit]

Good for the American Assosiation of Whatever, they don't represent what everyone believes.

In my view, it's an addiction, like any other.. Alcohol, Smoking etc.

Calling it a mental illness is just a strategy to leech more tax money into it's cause.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

Good for the American Assosiation of Whatever, they don't represent what everyone believes.

In my view, it's an addiction, like any other.. Alcohol, Smoking etc.

Calling it a mental illness is just a strategy to leech more tax money into it's cause.

Good point... I guess we can look at what the American Psychiatric Assocation says, and look at what easyduzzit says, and judge for ourselves who and what to believe.

Hopefully the site continues to get government funding, if its a successful program in the long-term it could be quite the breakthrough in social/government treatment of hard-drug addiction.

[eazyduzzit]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Good point... I guess we can look at what the American Psychiatric Assocation says, and look at what easyduzzit says, and judge for ourselves who and what to believe.

Nice sarcasm, but you see i wasn't forcing anyone to believe what i wrote or making my opinion out to be the right one as your inferring i am.

In my view

as aposed to

Originally Posted by Hakan

addiction is a mental illness not a choice.

Last time i checked, you don't catch Epilepsy, Downs Syndrom etc and one can hardily argue you "catch" yourself picking up a crack pipe and taking a few hits - that is no mental illness IMO, that my friends is choice, whether the circumstances surrounding the ordeal "caused" you to or not.

Only way i would believe other wise is if you lived in a box your whole life and where not educated on the dangers of drugs and since most people are - tough luck.

Just as the saying goes "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time" i think it can also apply to drug users as well. You know very well what your signing up for upon choosing to use drugs, it's not my problem, nor my tax dollars responsibility to solve it. IMO

[fleudian]

my grandparents live on e. hastings... my mom grew up there, and i used to stay with them for a week or so every summer when i was a kid. i never really realized how sketchy the whole area was, but thinking back, the place is a real mess.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

Nice sarcasm, but you see i wasn't forcing anyone to believe what i wrote or making my opinion out to be the right one as your inferring i am.

I don't see where I said you were forcing anything. I said people can look at what the APA says, what you say, and choose for themselves. If you're not 'making your opinion out to be the right one', what's the point of putting it forward? Don't you believe in it?

Just as the saying goes "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time" i think it can also apply to drug users as well. You know very well what your signing up for upon choosing to use drugs, it's not my problem, nor my tax dollars responsibility to solve it. IMO

Sure... except that your tax dollars end up treating them anyway in the form of health issues, overdose cases, long-term poverty/homelessness, etc. You're already paying for their addiction with your hard earned tax money whether you like it or not. The idea of the centre is that its a place where people might get support to kick their habit as well as make their addiction a 'cleaner' activity, reducing the chance of getting serious infectious disease, reducing the need for your precious tax dollars to support them in the future. If funding for this treatment shelter ends up saving more of your tax dollars in the future that would otherwise go to treating other symptoms of their addictions, wouldn't you, an apparent bottom-line dollars and cents guy, be in favour of the centre? Wouldn't this be a great C/conservative way to deal with the problem and potentially save a buck?

Or should we shut down the study and never figure out the answer to all that?

[CrusaderPi]

One thing I think we can all agree on in regards to safe injection sites is that they provide a centralized location for the junkies to congregate.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

One thing I think we can all agree on in regards to safe injection sites is that they provide a centralized location for the junkies to congregate.

And the point of that is....?

[fleudian]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

One thing I think we can all agree on in regards to safe injection sites is that they provide a centralized location for the junkies to congregate.

[Red Mile Style]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

You have a point, but so do i.

Either way, it's not a mental illness.

I know people who have went through ups and down in their life, some who have went through really bad times. I myself have had my share. I grew up with people who ran away from home, as well as having friends get kicked out of the house - having to spend time living with other friends or spend time on the streets.

My point is, you don't solve problems with drugs, and if you chose to do that, thats not my problem but your choice

The DSM IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) classifies addiction as a mental disorder. Psychologists and Psychiatrists help patients work through their addictions through therapy and/or prescription drugs (methodone). While the entire human genome has not been mapped yet, there is evidence supporting the theory that an addictive personality is inherited through our genes. This doesn't mean that everybody that carries the gene is predetermined to be an addict, but just like every other mental disorder, it is usually triggered by a stressor in the patient's environment.

I think you're confusing the act of actually taking drugs (personal choice) versus addicted to a drug. Alcholism is also a disorder - but those who drink alcohol socially are not deemed so. What seperates those who become alcoholics and those who can limit their intake? Surely it is not a personal choice for people to become alcoholics.

I remember watching a documentary a few years ago called "Fix" - which was basically about the huge drug problem in Vancouver and the municipal government trying to establish the SIS. The benefits of SIS are phoenomenal, and have been demonstrated all over Europe and I believe Australia as well. Supplying junkies with clean needles takes a burden off the health care system by thwarting diseases such as HIV/AIDS and hep B and C - not only to those who use the needles, but what about kids who find needles on the street? A nurse staff on hand is more economical considering the amount it costs to send an ambulance to people ODing in the streets, let alone freeing up that ambulance for other emergencies. Aesthetic wise, keeping drug users confined to a building will clean the city up. Easy access to support groups and addiction counselling helps create an environment for people to stop using drugs, thus crime rates go down. Realty prices go up in the area that drug-abusers used to congregate.

I mean, the benefits go on and on, it is just challenging the way most of society views drug addiction. The fact that drugs are illegal is not thwarting users at all, Something needs to be done, and this is a step in the right direction.

[eazyduzzit]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Sure... except that your tax dollars end up treating them anyway in the form of health issues, overdose cases, long-term poverty/homelessness, etc. You're already paying for their addiction with your hard earned tax money whether you like it or not. The idea of the centre is that its a place where people might get support to kick their habit as well as make their addiction a 'cleaner' activity, reducing the chance of getting serious infectious disease, reducing the need for your precious tax dollars to support them in the future. If funding for this treatment shelter ends up saving more of your tax dollars in the future that would otherwise go to treating other symptoms of their addictions, wouldn't you, an apparent bottom-line dollars and cents guy, be in favour of the centre? Wouldn't this be a great C/conservative way to deal with the problem and potentially save a buck?

Or should we shut down the study and never figure out the answer to all that?

I never voiced opposition to the center, i voiced opposition to calling drug addiction a mental illness. Although i will tell you my thoughts on the center and the whole issue in general:

I just believe authorities in Vancouver take a far too lenient stance when it comes to this whole issue. As i have said, as well as many others on the news and residents of Vancouver - the situation there is getting worse. When you hear on the news and read news reports that police don't even arrest users and do little to enforce their presence or to take the dealers off the streets, this is where the problem lies. It's especially worrie-sum when there is a police station located just over a block away from all of this activity as well as having a large police presence on the streets. Police need to do some sort of intimidation, make it so it's hard to deal drugs in that area and make it so those who use and those who deal are very wary of police presence. Police showing up, and groups of users/dealers just walking away with not a care in the world is clearly the problem here.

Let's face it, Vancouver has long had a far-left leaning stance when it comes to the issue of the DTES, and in the last 2 decades, it has got it absolutly no where. It's time to get out there and start throwing people in jail - thats certainly a good start to sobering up.

I'd much prefere to pay for warm meals and a roof over these peoples heads instead of "safe injection zones" which are only feeding these peoples habbits - weather it's clearer or not. This way, they are provided a clean enviroment, access to education as well as nutrition. They are brought off the streets and away from those who might influence them in a negative way. By the time they are released, they will have been sober for awhile - making it easier to fully quit as well as having a better outlook on life.

For a lot of these individuals, all they need is a fresh start and thats certainly not going to come from one of these "Safe injection Zones" but might very well come from a "timeout" so-to-speak, as in JAIL.

I'd also support tougher sentancing for the scum bags who are distributing these drugs and killing these people - which the Harper government is trying to accomplish. Get these individuals off the streets and these drugs won't be as easy to come by, making the amount of users and more importantly, the amount of new users decrease. The less available the drug is, the less people who will use. The more fear these people have in tough sentances for dealing and jail time for possetion, the less users. It's time to take a real tough stance on this issue, and not this far-left crap that envolves everyone getting off the hook, while we waste time encouraging peoples habits, this pandemic has got absolutly no where.

If a city of just over 2 million people can be in a worse situation than such cities as Chicago, then we know there is clearly a problem and those who think the problem has nothing to do with the policies and strategies being used - are blind.

[Blaster86]

Hey look! Living in Vancouver does serve a purpose on this board! Incoming logical bombardment!

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

I just believe authorities in Vancouver take a far too lenient stance when it comes to this whole issue. As i have said, as well as many others on the news and residents of Vancouver - the situation there is getting worse.

You want to know why they don't arrest them? Because they have a better chance getting clean at the safe injection site (SIS). Also a large majority of Vancouver's sudden homeless are from Riverview Mental Hospital which the BC Liberals shut down. It's now used mostly for filming movies. A far better purpose, apparently, than keeping those who are mentally ill safe. The situation is getting worse because the provincial government does nothing to fix it. VPD can't throw all the junkies in jail, otherwise there is no room for real criminals.

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

When you hear on the news and read news reports that police don't even arrest users and do little to enforce their presence or to take the dealers off the streets, this is where the problem lies. It's especially worrie-sum when there is a police station located just over a block away from all of this activity as well as having a large police presence on the streets. Police need to do some sort of intimidation, make it so it's hard to deal drugs in that area and make it so those who use and those who deal are very wary of police presence. Police showing up, and groups of users/dealers just walking away with not a care in the world is clearly the problem here.

Really? You've been here to see this? Most drug dealers in Vancouver sell marijuana, and you're right, the cops don't care about that. They are very leinient on marijuana. That's about it. I have watched them nail people hard for selling drugs in this city. Seriously, they stop dealers, they don't stop the users and that is for the very reason I stated above. The reason intimidation won't work is because of the judicial system is so weak. The gains far out weigh any problems. There is so much easy prey in this town it's scary, and barring police brutality that won't change.

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

Let's face it, Vancouver has long had a far-left leaning stance when it comes to the issue of the DTES, and in the last 2 decades, it has got it absolutly no where. It's time to get out there and start throwing people in jail - thats certainly a good start to sobering up.

Go check out the stats for people going to jail and sobering up and then staying sober. It's low, it's damn low. That doesn't do anything because they get out of jail in the same position as they went in. No money, no real skills, and no where to go. A place like the SIS atleast offers them a place to do what they are going to do anyways safely aswell as trying to help them get what they need. That's the best place to start for a user, jail just makes them rely heavier on the drugs when they get out.

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

I'd much prefere to pay for warm meals and a roof over these peoples heads instead of "safe injection zones" which are only feeding these peoples habbits - weather it's clearer or not. This way, they are provided a clean enviroment, access to education as well as nutrition. They are brought off the streets and away from those who might influence them in a negative way. By the time they are released, they will have been sober for awhile - making it easier to fully quit as well as having a better outlook on life.

You don't have a clue how a junkie works do you? Their first goal every day is to get their fix, if you feed that then they can focus on everything else. Jail solves nothing. They have a better chance at quitting in a place that supports them and tries to help them, as opposed to holding them away from their first goal and leaving them struggling. Jail doesn't work for a junkie. It just creates a vicious cycle.

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

For a lot of these individuals, all they need is a fresh start and thats certainly not going to come from one of these "Safe injection Zones" but might very well come from a "timeout" so-to-speak, as in JAIL.

Actually the SIS is very much a fresh start. Because they don't ridicule for their problems, they try and help people get over this demon. Jail doesn't. Prison will ridicule you for what you did, and then throw you back out on your as to start again. You know what happened whenever I got out of time-out? I was ****ed off.

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

I'd also support tougher sentancing for the scum bags who are distributing these drugs and killing these people - which the Harper government is trying to accomplish.

Really? Where is this legislation? Must have missed it. While stiffer punishments is the only solution, we don't have the jails to follow through.

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

If a city of just over 2 million people can be in a worse situation than such cities as Chicago, then we know there is clearly a problem and those who think the problem has nothing to do with the policies and strategies being used - are blind.

The sheer notion this city has a problem worse than any major US city is laughable at best. ABsolutely ludicrous. Give me facts to back that statement up, because I can go on a hunt for seminars and interviews with US diplomats saying not only is Vancouver a lot better than most cities, the SIS is a requirement for North America.

[eazyduzzit]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Hey look! Living in Vancouver does serve a purpose on this board! Incoming logical bombardment!



You want to know why they don't arrest them? Because they have a better chance getting clean at the safe injection site (SIS). Also a large majority of Vancouver's sudden homeless are from Riverview Mental Hospital which the BC Liberals shut down. It's now used mostly for filming movies. A far better purpose, apparently, than keeping those who are mentally ill safe. The situation is getting worse because the provincial government does nothing to fix it. VPD can't throw all the junkies in jail, otherwise there is no room for real criminals.



Really? You've been here to see this? Most drug dealers in Vancouver sell marijuana, and you're right, the cops don't care about that. They are very leinient on marijuana. That's about it. I have watched them nail people hard for selling drugs in this city. Seriously, they stop dealers, they don't stop the users and that is for the very reason I stated above. The reason intimidation won't work is because of the judicial system is so weak. The gains far out weigh any problems. There is so much easy prey in this town it's scary, and barring police brutality that won't change.




Go check out the stats for people going to jail and sobering up and then staying sober. It's low, it's damn low. That doesn't do anything because they get out of jail in the same position as they went in. No money, no real skills, and no where to go. A place like the SIS atleast offers them a place to do what they are going to do anyways safely aswell as trying to help them get what they need. That's the best place to start for a user, jail just makes them rely heavier on the drugs when they get out.



You don't have a clue how a junkie works do you? Their first goal every day is to get their fix, if you feed that then they can focus on everything else. Jail solves nothing. They have a better chance at quitting in a place that supports them and tries to help them, as opposed to holding them away from their first goal and leaving them struggling. Jail doesn't work for a junkie. It just creates a vicious cycle.



Actually the SIS is very much a fresh start. Because they don't ridicule for their problems, they try and help people get over this demon. Jail doesn't. Prison will ridicule you for what you did, and then throw you back out on your as to start again. You know what happened whenever I got out of time-out? I was ****ed off.




Really? Where is this legislation? Must have missed it. While stiffer punishments is the only solution, we don't have the jails to follow through.





The sheer notion this city has a problem worse than any major US city is laughable at best. ABsolutely ludicrous. Give me facts to back that statement up, because I can go on a hunt for seminars and interviews with US diplomats saying not only is Vancouver a lot better than most cities, the SIS is a requirement for North America.

No time to read through your left wing help my addiction crap

But, clearly whatever your doing in that hell hole isn't working. So you scuff at my remarks, but since it hasn't been tryed: #1 you can't say it wouldn't work. #2 you can't sit here and say the current strategy is working - because it isn't.

Kay Thanks.

Originally Posted by Blaster86

A place like the SIS atleast offers them a place to do what they are going to do anyways safely aswell as trying to help them get what they need. That's the best place to start for a user, jail just makes them rely heavier on the drugs when they get out.

What are you talking about.

It helps them get high, cleaner way or not. It helps them get high. WTF? It dosen't rehabilitate them in any way, people come and go, all to get high. Nobody comes there to sober up and your a fool to think so.

As for stats, give me some stats, some links. Instead of posting nonesense.

Jail can rehabilitate, the first step to quitting your habit is to go sober, and the best way to go sober is to withdraw yourself from society, not head on down to the local shoot up center.

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Jail doesn't work for a junkie. It just creates a vicious cycle.

And that "endless cycle" stops if your withdrawn from the drug for an extended period of time.

Thats science my friend, thats how the body works. Thats how you quit drugs, quit smoking, quit drinking. You have to stop doing it. Not keep doing it in a controlled enviroment???!!

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Jail doesn't work for a junkie. It just creates a vicious cycle.

Clearly you know nothing about prison. You just have this view thats it's so negative.

When in jail, you have so many oppertunities to learn, gain education and valuable life skills - stuff you don't learn while getting high as that center.

Prison teaches you responsibility and many other aspects in order to live a life on the outside, getting high at that center dosen't.

Not much you can learn when your **** faced on Heroin.

Mr. Scientist.

[Red Mile Style]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

No time to read through your left wing help my addiction crap

But, clearly whatever your doing in that hell hole isn't working. So you scuff at my remarks, but since it hasn't been tryed: #1 you can't say it wouldn't work. #2 you can't sit here and say the current strategy is working - because it isn't.

Kay Thanks.



What are you talking about.

It helps them get high, cleaner way or not. It helps them get high. WTF? It dosen't rehabilitate them in any way, people come and go, all to get high. Nobody comes there to sober up and your a fool to think so.

As for stats, give me some stats, some links. Instead of posting nonesense.

Jail can rehabilitate, the first step to quitting your habit is to go sober, and the best way to go sober is to withdraw yourself from society, not head on down to the local shoot up center.

Jeez, why don't you show some respect to other posters?

Kay Thanks.

Where's all YOUR proof, stats and links instead of posting nonsense like "addiction is not an illness"?

I agree, jail can rehabilitate criminals, such as drug dealers, but it can't rehabilitate people with disorders. This is why jail does not do anything for drug users. Just like jail wouldn't do anything for the criminally insane, but an institution can. Incarceration can help people realize that once you break society's laws, you lose society's rights, but if you're sick and you can't help your actions - it is useless.

I myself would rather keep murderers, rapists, people who commit assault, the real criminals in jail rather than sick people who use drugs. I don't want my tax dollars going towards a rehabilitation program that won't help them. Plus, I don't know how many crime-documentaries and criminal documentaries that I have seen where criminals have met other like-minded individuals while in jail for lesser charges. I volunteered at the drop-in-center last year and I got to know some of the people there. It's funny, because a woman actually said something along the lines of "I hate jail, but I love jail. I'm in jail but I have a roof over my head and food on my plate" - please tell me how jail is going to help these people over-come their drug addictions if they don't actually hate going there?

Safe injection sites do not help people get high, people will do this regardless of if the SIS exists or not. Making the corelation that only places that have the centers have a problem with drugs is illogical.

Clearly, if you call Vancouver a hell-hole, you have never been there. I fail to understand how someone can call a place between the mountains and the ocean a hell-hole.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

Clearly you know nothing about prison. You just have this view thats it's so negative.

When in jail, you have so many oppertunities to learn, gain education and valuable life skills - stuff you don't learn while getting high as that center.

Prison teaches you responsibility and many other aspects in order to live a life on the outside, getting high at that center dosen't.

Ah yes, prison. It's like university. So many opportunities to learn, get an education, valuable life skills, learn responsibility... it's a wonder we don't all go there.

It's becoming more and more clear all the time that the whole "War on Drugs" has been phenomenally successful, so I agree with you -- we should just keep doing the same things. Lock up those drug addicts -- they'll get clean in prison. I mean whoever heard of drugs in prison?

[Hakan]

Drugs in Vancouver's DTES is not a crime and punishment issue, it's a social issue.

Eazy you really don't come across too well when you trivialize the decisions made by drug addicts. Do you think they chose that life? Do you think they really want to be drug addicts? No. Clearly there are issues of addiction affecting them. Clearly you have never been addicted to anything before so you really can't storm in on your high horse and start prescribing solutions that are completely devoid of the reality that these people live in.

Just quit doing heroin? Good idea. Why haven't I, they, or anythign else involved with drug policy thought of that? Wow, it's so simple! Great idea.

Do you understand how idiotic most of solutions sound?