Alberta police can seize and auction off johns' cars

[I-Hate-Hulse]

I think it's important here to seperate two issues here: 1) the legality of prostitution (which is a long and lengthy debate) and 2) Not having innocent bystanders (ie neighborhoods) get caught up in #1) and suffering the ill effects of having this "industry in your backyard. The Herald article is written, and I think this law is written to address 2).

Whether you're for or against the legalization of prostitution I think it's safe to say that no one supports having Johns cruising residential neighborhoods and propositioning 15 yr olds on the way to school. Or having their 5 yr olds blowing balloon animals with the used condom they found in their backyard.

Quite frankly, I think the effect of this legislation is to drive the revenue model into a more "escort agency" or dial-a-hooker scenario, in an out of sight, out of mind attempt to control it. I don't think anyone think's they're going to stop this completely but at least the innocent bystanders won't get caught up by this.

I bring some perpective on this as I lived in a condo on the infamous 15th Ave stroll in Vic Park for 4 years with a window view of the main stroll. These are not "Julia Roberts" hookers but graduates of the school of hard knocks, C list stuff). I think a lot of the comments posted here come from the male perspective, and it'd be a whole lot different if you were a girl in these neighboorhoods. I heard and saw a whole mess of incidents for residents in our condo such as:

• A well dressed lawyer (blonde and attractive) for a major firm in town walked to downtown every day. Clearly not a working girl but the Johns would still circle her on the route everyday. Ditto for any reasonably attractive woman walking in our area. "Permanently creepy" were the words one girl used to describe it.
• My buddy's wife who was meeting us at my condo couldn't buzz up as I had my phone off by accident. She asked other residents in my building to let her in and they assumed she was a hooker. She then has to hang out outside our building and gets "spotted" by the Johns who mistake her for one of the regulars. She ignores them but a guy gets out of his car who can't understand why she's not responding. You have to understand she's a very neurotic and prim woman whom if you could pick the person who would react the worst to this situation - she'd be it. She freaks out and refuses to come back to my place ever again.

It was always sad/disgusting to see the cycle of life on the streets. A fresh faced pretty teen would start the streets and within 8 months she'd look like a 42 year old. I didn't blame them but I never could figure out the Johns. Who the hell needs it that bad at 7:30am in the morning on a Sunday? Shift work I guess. Quite the wide assortment of Johns too, everything from the beat up pickup from work to Chevy Avalanches and BMW's. Amazing.

The best was once when a company van picked up a girl on front of our building. Only the van has the phone number of the business written all over it. The lady next door phoned it promptly and informed them what their driver was up to...

A few resourceful Johns (mainly seniors from what I saw) figured out a way around the law, but I'm not sure if the amended law closes the loop hole. They'd park their car, get out and walk a block to proposition, before returning to their cars.

Man am I glad to be out of that hood!

Bottom line: you won't stop prostitution - but at least you'll make life a little more difficult for Johns, and it'll help give neighborhoods overrun with the sex trade a fighting chance.

[Shazam]

Great. So what's fotze going to do to pass time now?

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Well, that would be the same if they were setting up speed traps on a privately owned road; and if the owner of the road was charging men $100 to drive down that road however they pleased.

The fact is speeding on public roads can be detrimental to public safety. I just don't see how a guy looking for consentual sex is anywhere near as bad.

The law is the law ain't it. Don't do the crime if you don't want to do the time is the usual argument. Qualifying crimes don't work as far as I'm concerned but getting rid of dumb laws/enforcement does.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by I-Hate-Hulse

Bottom line: you won't stop prostitution - but at least you'll make life a little more difficult for Johns, and it'll help give neighborhoods overrun with the sex trade a fighting chance.

So... if you won't stop prostitution, how does making life more difficult for Johns change anything? It sounds contradictory to say prostitution won't ever stop, but we can stop it from happening in neighbourhoods? Isn't that pretty much the only place it goes down (barring a red light district)? I don't get how we can acknowledge that it won't stop, but then say we can try to stop it in all the places that it happens...

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

Qualifying crimes don't work as far as I'm concerned but getting rid of dumb laws/enforcement does.

Isn't that the same arguement I'm making? ie that this is a dumb law and dumb enforcement and we should get rid of it.

As for the used condom issue; I was unaware of it. (Insert random "mom joke" about somebody's mom cleaning up after us here.) Here's my question though; wouldn't making Johns have to walk increase the amount of sex acts being performed on the street? I mean if I was going to pick up a hooker with my car I would think we'd drive to a hotel room or something. Or have I just been watching too many episodes of "Cops" again?

[Hakan]

Idiotic policy. It will only marginalize sex trade workers to darker and less safe areas and will have zero effect on reducing prostitution.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

So... if you won't stop prostitution, how does making life more difficult for Johns change anything? It sounds contradictory to say prostitution won't ever stop, but we can stop it from happening in neighbourhoods? Isn't that pretty much the only place it goes down (barring a red light district)? I don't get how we can acknowledge that it won't stop, but then say we can try to stop it in all the places that it happens...

Read paragraph 3. I think it's more about moving the business off the streets and into the realm of escort agencies so neighborhoods don't get caught up in the crossfire.

Any reduction in prostitution would be a bonus.

[ken0042]

So, does that mean that escorts are legal? I thought that was sort of grey area.

If so, do you have that $200 you owe me Fotze?

[Hack&Lube]

The other way is that they decriminalize it, moderate it, and tax it (like is proposed with drugs) and everybody will be safer all around.

But I get the feeling authorities don't want to sully their hands in this sort of thing.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by I-Hate-Hulse

Read paragraph 3. I think it's more about moving the business off the streets and into the realm of escort agencies so neighborhoods don't get caught up in the crossfire.

Any reduction in prostitution would be a bonus.

Doesn't most of the business take place on the streets? Is there honestly anything other than round the clock surveillance that could do this? For some reason I don't think Johns are going to be scared off because of this law... there are plenty of laws regulating all kinds of illegal activities, and yet they happen all the time (like auto-theft for example). People know its wrong and that there are penalties, but they do it all the same...

I think it might be naive to believe anything other than a massive police effort can 'get prostitution off the streets', thats where tons of it happens. If they really wanted to get it off the streets why not just arrest and sentence every prostitute out there?

[Looger]

well, there go my friday nights...

seriously, i think this law is somewhat harsh, but obviously it's backed by affected communities.

i can understand why prostitution is not legal, being a christian-based society and all, but maybe some kind of brothel setup like nevada or parts of europe can make it better for the girls, and end the problem of johns creeping people out / leaving biohazardous waste.

pimps are the real winners under the current setup.

[fredr123]

Police pestering your (un)friendly neighborhood drug dealer has provided some of the pressure for dealers to move to a dial-a-doper business model. Perhaps this law will have a similar effect. Mind you, with hookers, unlike with drugs, a lot of customers would probably want to do a bit of window shopping before they made their purchase.

I would be interested to see how this law would stand up to legal challenge. Provincial laws that result in automatic license suspensions for persons charged with impaired driving have stood up, in large part, because of the incredible social cost attributable to impaired driving and the rational connection between preventing a (possibly) intoxicated driver from driving by suspending their license.

It could be argued that prostitution has similar effects on society as impaired driving. I'm not sure it can be linked to as many deaths or injuries as drunk driving though. Protecting underage women from being exploited by johns is probably a really good reason to look at the problems of prostitution but that calls into question the proportionality of the mechanism used to combat the problem.

I'm not sold that this is the way to go. I don't advocate for underage hookers to be further exploited but I also cannot stand for a further degredation of accuseds' rights and a situation tantamount to punishment before conviction. But your results may vary...

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by Looger

well, there go my friday nights...

seriously, i think this law is somewhat harsh, but obviously it's backed by affected communities.

i can understand why prostitution is not legal, being a christian-based society and all, but maybe some kind of brothel setup like nevada or parts of europe can make it better for the girls, and end the problem of johns creeping people out / leaving biohazardous waste.

pimps are the real winners under the current setup.

In our modern society, if there was ever a segment of our working class that would benefit from the introduction of unionization it's probably the prostitute.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Just to clarify a few things about this topic.

As I understand it prostitution is NOT illegal in Canada. What is illegal is proposition prostitution in a public place. I have no experience in this regard, but as it's been explained to me, the illegal part is driving up to the prostitute and asking her to have sex with you for money.

That is why escort agencies are not technically illegal, because I suppose the expectation is that by the time you get around to negotiating price with the girl you are somewhere private, such as your home, or a hotel room.

I read all about it during the superbowl because apparently Windsor became the place to be for gambling, drinking, and prostitution, because for someone under 21, all those things are illegal in Detroit.

So back on topic, what this may be trying to do is make it more of a detterant for guys to drive up to a hooker on the street, ie get it off the streets and into the yellow pages.

[fredr123]

Offence in relation to prostitution

213. (1) Every person who in a public place or in any place open to public view
(a) stops or attempts to stop any motor vehicle,
(b) impedes the free flow of pedestrian or vehicular traffic or ingress to or egress from premises adjacent to that place, or
(c) stops or attempts to stop any person or in any manner communicates or attempts to communicate with any person
for the purpose of engaging in prostitution or of obtaining the sexual services of a prostitute is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Definition of “public place”

(2) In this section, “public place” includes any place to which the public have access as of right or by invitation, express or implied, and any motor vehicle located in a public place or in any place open to public view.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by fredr123

I'm not sold that this is the way to go. I don't advocate for underage hookers to be further exploited but I also cannot stand for a further degredation of accuseds' rights and a situation tantamount to punishment before conviction. But your results may vary...

I think you're missing something. As I understand it, the law says that the car can be auctioned off once the person has been convicted. So it's punishment after conviction. And if they're holding the car before the berson goes to court, that isn't much different than holding evidnece in any other case, which i'm sure doesn't need this law to allow it to happen.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by fredr123

Offence in relation to prostitution

213. (1) Every person who in a public place or in any place open to public view
(a) stops or attempts to stop any motor vehicle,
(b) impedes the free flow of pedestrian or vehicular traffic or ingress to or egress from premises adjacent to that place, or
(c) stops or attempts to stop any person or in any manner communicates or attempts to communicate with any person
for the purpose of engaging in prostitution or of obtaining the sexual services of a prostitute is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Definition of “public place”

(2) In this section, “public place” includes any place to which the public have access as of right or by invitation, express or implied, and any motor vehicle located in a public place or in any place open to public view.

Thank you. So it seems there's nothing against prostituion, just doing it in public. Which means that say a brothel would even be illegal, because by the definition of this law, a brothel would be a public place. But if you can get the girl to your place before you discuss sex (hello escort agency), then you can buy whatever you want.

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

I think you're missing something. As I understand it, the law says that the car can be auctioned off once the person has been convicted. So it's punishment after conviction. And if they're holding the car before the berson goes to court, that isn't much different than holding evidnece in any other case, which i'm sure doesn't need this law to allow it to happen.

You still don't have use of your vehicle until you are found not guilty. Given the inherent systemic delays in court proceedings, it can take months for a case to get to trial even if you attempt to fast-track it. To be without your vehicle, perhaps your primary means of transportation to your job, for even a few months only to be found not guilty at trial? That sucks big time.

Note in the Herald article that most of the cars seized in Manitoba and Saskatchewan, some 400+ vehicles in each province, were eventually returned to the owners.

[Looger]

wow, i'd heard that but there it is...

i guess the 3000 a month monogamous prostitutes in bc are safe.

[OilersBaby]

this is just going to encourage john's to steal other people's cars and then solicit prostitutes. what a ridiculous suggestion to try to fix the problem.