The Fight Against Scientology

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Because atheists are 100% clean, virtuous, honest, loyal and honorable.

And of course you could haul 500 evil people who happen to believe in a religion for every 1 evil athiest. The ratio of actual athiests to everyone else is probably the same, or greater.

I've said it before, and I will say it again Cheese, you are every bit the zealot that those you despise are.

Way to twist the logic snake. Thats not what I was talking about and you know it. You are the one who suggested that you could only be virtuous by being religious...that without theism man would inherantly be bad or led down the garden path. I think you are dead wrong...backwards even. I never said there wouldnt be bad Atheists, of course there would be/are. Its your flawed logic that man can only do good by following a goD.
How about we allow the earth a good century of no religious involvement to see what would really happen? Every single religious group on earth would fight to the death to stop that from happening. They would die a slow and painful death.
I dont despise theists...I have many friends who are of that ilk...one great friend who is a Pastor, ive mentioned that before. I am allowed to preach my side of things just as loudly and just as strongly as any Christian/Hindu/Buddhist/Muslim. Its you who has a problem with that. If that makes me a zealot then so be it snake...at least Im peaceful and only use words to get my point across.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Cheese

well if he was a budhist hes a theist. LOL. How can you be a non theist and believe in any God? Id call him a fence sitter...unsure what side to sit on.

Buddhists don't necessarily believe in any "god". So LOL right back at ya.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism

Buddhism (also known as Buddha Dharma (Pali: Dhamma), "the teachings of the awakened one") is a dharmic, non-theistic religion, a way of life, a practical philosophy, and arguably a form of psychology. Buddhism focuses on the teachings of Gautama Buddha (Pali: Gotama Buddha), who lived in Epic India around the fifth century BCE[1] Buddhism spread throughout the Indian subcontinent in the five centuries following the Buddha's passing, and propagated into Central, Southeast, and East Asia over the next two millennia.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Cheese

How about we allow the earth a good century of no religious involvement to see what would really happen? Every single religious group on earth would fight to the death to stop that from happening. They would die a slow and painful death.

And how would you accomplish that without having a police state. Communism tried it in Russia and China. I don't like organised religion either but to stop freedom of thought could go a lot farther then religion and you'd end up with a rigid society like the Muslim's or Communist's. Right back where you started from. I like divergent thought even if I don't agree with it, as I don't often agree with you. Freedom is one of the greatest gifts man has and to give it up for an idea is nonsense.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Way to twist the logic snake. Thats not what I was talking about and you know it.

I have no idea what you were talking about. It was just another incoherent anti-religion rant.

You are the one who suggested that you could only be virtuous by being religious...that without theism man would inherantly be bad or led down the garden path.

I did? When did I say that?

I never said there wouldnt be bad Atheists, of course there would be/are. Its your flawed logic that man can only do good by following a goD.

When did I say that?

------------------------

While the rest of your post is predicated on your inability to actually read what others say, prefering instead to simply make up arguments for others then offer your canned responses, I will respond anyway:

How about we allow the earth a good century of no religious involvement to see what would really happen? Every single religious group on earth would fight to the death to stop that from happening. They would die a slow and painful death.

This is human nature. While you take a great deal of joy in painting religion as evil, you fail to realize that if there is no god, then that evil is coming from man himself. Your arguments in this thread are contradictory. I am not sure how you can argue that many religious people can do so many bad things while arguing that man is inherently good. If God is not making him bad, then man himself is.

Now, back to my point. Mans nature is to resist change he does not like. In this case, religious organizations are no different than monarchies and barons in history. Than the big tycoons and companies of the industrial revolution. Hell, no different than the NHLPA. Man, by his very nature, will fight to retain control. Your argument that organized religions will fight the abolition of religion only further shows that man is not the virtuous individual you claim.

I dont despise theists...I have many friends who are of that ilk...one great friend who is a Pastor, ive mentioned that before. I am allowed to preach my side of things just as loudly and just as strongly as any Christian/Hindu/Buddhist/Muslim. Its you who has a problem with that. If that makes me a zealot then so be it snake...at least Im peaceful and only use words to get my point across.

Boy, you just love that moral high ground, dont you? There are bilions of people who are Christian, Jew, Muslim or Agnostic who are peaceful and only use words to get their point across. You are not remotely close to being special in this regard.

And no, I have never said you have no right to argue as loudly and strongly as anyone else with such strong faith. I am merely pointing out that you truely do not occupy any moral high ground.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Cheese

well if he was a budhist hes a theist. LOL. How can you be a non theist and believe in any God? Id call him a fence sitter...unsure what side to sit on.

Ermmm buddhist don't really believe in a god per se and Buddhism is more of a philopsophy or way of life than a religion.

You got some really great ideas and wake up calls most times, but gotta call you out on this one.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Cheese

How about we allow the earth a good century of no religious involvement to see what would really happen? Every single religious group on earth would fight to the death to stop that from happening. They would die a slow and painful death.

What a marvellous idea. When you figure out how to make this happen let me know!

While we are it, lets stop world hunger!

Probably just as fruitful and logical as someone believing in an all powerful god.

Anywho, I kind of agree with the original argument pressed against you. You cling to a belief of 'no-god' so strongly that it could be called a type of faith. As it stands you and I have very similar beliefs. But I find myself to be a very spiritual person who believes in larger things, (nature, energy, good will) all real and proven BTW, while you what to dissasociate yourself from a larger cause. At least for your arguments.

Maybe the more relevent question is why you feel a need to do that?

[Daradon]

Back to the thread topic, uhhhh yeah scientology sucks.

Yet is strangely powerful. Lots of suckers I guess. Course many 'religions or cults' are too powerful.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Buddhists don't necessarily believe in any "god". So LOL right back at ya.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism

Buddhism (also known as Buddha Dharma (Pali: Dhamma), "the teachings of the awakened one") is a dharmic, non-theistic religion, a way of life, a practical philosophy, and arguably a form of psychology. Buddhism focuses on the teachings of Gautama Buddha (Pali: Gotama Buddha), who lived in Epic India around the fifth century BCE[1] Buddhism spread throughout the Indian subcontinent in the five centuries following the Buddha's passing, and propagated into Central, Southeast, and East Asia over the next two millennia.

Welll...not so fast there young one...there are many camps out there that suggest otherwise.
If you base your thought on the fact its not like western monotheism you may have a point...but remember as an Atheist, or someone who does not believe in ANY Deity/God/Supreme Being...the FACT that Buddhist philosophy believes in, in some sects, rebirth, Buddhic Awakening, omniscience, the miraculous powers of a Buddha (e.g. walking through walls and upon water, skywalking, mind-reading, knowledge of all beings' past lives), to what most scholars identify as worship practices (ceremonial reverence of saints), to the Buddha's repeated claim that his Dharma is "inconceivable" and cannot be fully apprehended by logic and reason, suggests to me a theistic approach and thought to the philosophy.
It is not as black and white as you would like to believe.

So I guess using your vernacular...right back at ya LOL. There are many sects of Buddhism...some of the older sects prefer to consider themselves theists.
However...in saying all of this....IF I Cheese were to join any religion again...Buddhism would be my choice, and I did study it for awhile.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

And how would you accomplish that without having a police state. Communism tried it in Russia and China. I don't like organised religion either but to stop freedom of thought could go a lot farther then religion and you'd end up with a rigid society like the Muslim's or Communist's. Right back where you started from. I like divergent thought even if I don't agree with it, as I don't often agree with you. Freedom is one of the greatest gifts man has and to give it up for an idea is nonsense.

Of for christs sake...are you suggesting that only communist states could be Atheist? Are Christiians still hanging onto that thin thread? Talk about fear mongering! Even in the darkest hours of the Soviet Empire the Russian Orthodox church played a significant role in HELPING Stalin stay in power.
My response was suggesting...hey weve tried religion for a few thousand years...lets try the alternate for a century and see what happens...LOL.
Hauling out the old Communist manifesto is simply garbage. There is nothing greater at stopping freedom of thought than theism...theism that teaches one to believe strongly in lies, deitys, Gods, Supreme beings and books written by man WITHOUT the ability to question. How divergent is that?
Where is it written that in order to be free man MUST have religion?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

I have no idea what you were talking about. It was just another incoherent anti-religion rant.



I did? When did I say that?






When did I say that?

------------------------

While the rest of your post is predicated on your inability to actually read what others say, prefering instead to simply make up arguments for others then offer your canned responses, I will respond anyway:



This is human nature. While you take a great deal of joy in painting religion as evil, you fail to realize that if there is no god, then that evil is coming from man himself. Your arguments in this thread are contradictory. I am not sure how you can argue that many religious people can do so many bad things while arguing that man is inherently good. If God is not making him bad, then man himself is.

Now, back to my point. Mans nature is to resist change he does not like. In this case, religious organizations are no different than monarchies and barons in history. Than the big tycoons and companies of the industrial revolution. Hell, no different than the NHLPA. Man, by his very nature, will fight to retain control. Your argument that organized religions will fight the abolition of religion only further shows that man is not the virtuous individual you claim.



Boy, you just love that moral high ground, dont you? There are bilions of people who are Christian, Jew, Muslim or Agnostic who are peaceful and only use words to get their point across. You are not remotely close to being special in this regard.

And no, I have never said you have no right to argue as loudly and strongly as anyone else with such strong faith. I am merely pointing out that you truely do not occupy any moral high ground.

wow...did it take you long to come up with this? Moral high ground? Isnt that something that theists choose to do? So what if theres millions of religious zealots who use words to get their point across? The issue is...is that point valid? Is it true? Can it be verified?
And thats where this started...with Scientology...a blatant lie developed by man...just like all of the other choices on the menu.

[Frank the Tank]

If anyone is interested at an inside look of how truly INSANE and powerful Scientology is, I'd recommend picking up "A Piece of Blue Sky", by John Attak. Really fascinating and unerving look at the inner workings of this whack-job cult.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Welll...not so fast there young one...there are many camps out there that suggest otherwise.
If you base your thought on the fact its not like western monotheism you may have a point...but remember as an Atheist, or someone who does not believe in ANY Deity/God/Supreme Being...the FACT that Buddhist philosophy believes in, in some sects, rebirth, Buddhic Awakening, omniscience, the miraculous powers of a Buddha (e.g. walking through walls and upon water, skywalking, mind-reading, knowledge of all beings' past lives), to what most scholars identify as worship practices (ceremonial reverence of saints), to the Buddha's repeated claim that his Dharma is "inconceivable" and cannot be fully apprehended by logic and reason, suggests to me a theistic approach and thought to the philosophy.
It is not as black and white as you would like to believe.

Where did I say it was black and white? All I said is what my friend believes in his particular sect. I even used descriptive words like "not necessarily". For whatever reason it had you laughing out loud.

And just because it suggests to you a theistic approach, doesn't make it so. Try to keep an open mind. You were the one who painted it black and white by saying that if my friend was a Buddhist, he must be a theist. Believing in rebirth as a part of the nature of the universe, does not make someone a theist.

So I guess using your vernacular...right back at ya LOL. There are many sects of Buddhism...some of the older sects prefer to consider themselves theists.
However...in saying all of this....IF I Cheese were to join any religion again...Buddhism would be my choice, and I did study it for awhile.

So what? Some of the older sects may consider themselves theists. So does that make my friend wrong then if he wasn't in an older sect? And which sects consider themselves theists still?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Cheese

wow...did it take you long to come up with this? Moral high ground? Isnt that something that theists choose to do? So what if theres millions of religious zealots who use words to get their point across? The issue is...is that point valid? Is it true? Can it be verified?
And thats where this started...with Scientology...a blatant lie developed by man...just like all of the other choices on the menu.

Prove to me that they are blatant lies.

[Blaster86]

Whoa, thanks for de-railing my thread Cheese. It made total and utter sense to take a thread about a cult who oppresses people's rights into another Anti-Religion rant, because you know you don't have enough of those.

[troutman]

Anyone read this book yet?

http://www.amazon.ca/God-Delusion-Ri...541130?ie=UTF8

The God Delusion (Hardcover)
by Richard Dawkins (Author)

From Publishers Weekly
The antireligion wars started by Daniel Dennett and Sam Harris will heat up even more with this salvo from celebrated Oxford biologist Dawkins. For a scientist who criticizes religion for its intolerance, Dawkins has written a surprisingly intolerant book, full of scorn for religion and those who believe. But Dawkins, who gave us the selfish gene, anticipates this criticism. He says it's the scientist and humanist in him that makes him hostile to religions—fundamentalist Christianity and Islam come in for the most opprobrium—that close people's minds to scientific truth, oppress women and abuse children psychologically with the notion of eternal damnation. While Dawkins can be witty, even confirmed atheists who agree with his advocacy of science and vigorous rationalism may have trouble stomaching some of the rhetoric.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Fishman/time-behar.html


Scientology: The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power.

This famous article critical of Scientology has been the target of an organized book-burning campaign by Scientologists as detailed in the Scarff deposition. The piece was awarded the Gerald Loeb Award for distinguished business and financial journalism, the Worth Bingham Prize and the Conscience in Media Awards from the American Society of Journalists and Authors.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Whoa, thanks for de-railing my thread Cheese. It made total and utter sense to take a thread about a cult who oppresses people's rights into another Anti-Religion rant, because you know you don't have enough of those.

I think Cheese was right to make the connection. Any criticism you can make about Scientology can be equally made against any other religion.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by troutman

I think Cheese was right to make the connection. Any critiscm you can make about Scientology can be equally made against any other religion.

I have never seen a modern Christian forced to give every penny of their savings to their church unless they really wanted to. It is not a forced part of the religion.

I've never heard of a modern christian being starved and forced off of medication because the church viewed it as wrong. Jehovah witnesses are also a cult and do not count.

It was a reach to start the arguement, he just has a hard-on for inciting pointless religious arguements and de-railing threads.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

I have never seen a modern Christian forced to give every penny of their savings to their church unless they really wanted to. It is not a forced part of the religion.

I've never heard of a modern christian being starved and forced off of medication because the church viewed it as wrong. Jehovah witnesses are also a cult and do not count.

It was a reach to start the arguement, he just has a hard-on for inciting pointless religious arguements and de-railing threads.

No reach at all. Apply the same logic you would in debunking scientology to your analysis of any other religion.

Are you to judge what is a religion and what is a cult?

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

I have never seen a modern Christian forced to give every penny of their savings to their church unless they really wanted to. It is not a forced part of the religion.

I've never heard of a modern christian being starved and forced off of medication because the church viewed it as wrong. Jehovah witnesses are also a cult and do not count.

It was a reach to start the arguement, he just has a hard-on for inciting pointless religious arguements and de-railing threads.

Do you not consider Mormans part of Christianity?

[Resolute 14]

None of the Mormons I know have been forced to give every penny of their savinngs to the church.