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Old 10-11-2006, 08:53 PM   #21
Jake
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This is kind of pointless. I believe IQ tests do indicate intelligence to some level, but a 4 point difference isn't significant enough since the test does have flaws.

Some woman are smarter then men and some men are smarter than woman. I've known some very stupid and smart people from both sexes.
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Old 10-11-2006, 10:22 PM   #22
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Ever heard of maternity leave? Some women take a while off, then return to the workplace, in fact it's a regulation, companies have to allow it.
Thank you for enlightening me on this new concept.

Many women take maternity leave then turn into soccer mom's for at least a few years. Instead of working their way up the corporate ladder they have chosen to stay home and raise their children, good for them. With that said if a woman doesn't want kids and chooses to pursue the corporate world then I'm all for it. Yes the ol' boys club definately exists in some industries but there's no doubt that maternity leave/raising children factors in to a large degree.

It's funny how certain topics are so touchy.
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Old 10-11-2006, 10:28 PM   #23
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He probably tested his own wife and the mere fact that her scores were included brought down the women's average.
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Old 10-11-2006, 10:30 PM   #24
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Ali G explores Feminism. Hilarious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oftOCN1jkNo
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Old 10-11-2006, 10:37 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarkey View Post
Thank you for enlightening me on this new concept.

Many women take maternity leave then turn into soccer mom's for at least a few years. Instead of working their way up the corporate ladder they have chosen to stay home and raise their children, good for them. With that said if a woman doesn't want kids and chooses to pursue the corporate world then I'm all for it. Yes the ol' boys club definately exists in some industries but there's no doubt that maternity leave/raising children factors in to a large degree.

It's funny how certain topics are so touchy.
When people say "women make less then men" they're not talking about soccer moms. They're talking about women with the same education, experience and commitment to their jobs. The stats the point to women making less then men control for those other factors such as being soccer moms.
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Old 10-12-2006, 12:08 AM   #26
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without divulging my gender, I'm going to have to go ahead and agree with Rushton.
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Old 10-12-2006, 03:03 AM   #27
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Ever heard of maternity leave? Some women take a while off, then return to the workplace, in fact it's a regulation, companies have to allow it.
Im not sure what the laws in Canada are, but in California, men are also given that right..its called Paternity Leave.
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Old 10-12-2006, 05:55 AM   #28
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I'm going on the side of equal but different.

Women can do things men can't and men can do things women can't. Both excell at different things.

I read a study once that said that men focused better. Explaining why men often jump ahead in their field. Discounting political and economic sexism by men or misongystic cultures, it is interesting that more men are often credited with sceintific discoveries, works of art, generally at anything that takes a lot of focus. Not to say women don't crack and excell at those fields or can't, just that there is a HIGHER PROPORTION of men. Even in examples such as art or music where both sexes seem to perform the same way, we can recall more men than women.

On the other side, women are far beter are multitasking. Which proves why they excel are especially verbal and all linguistic skills. They excel in fields which require a lot of hands on and a lot of things gong on at once.

Whether this has adapted through gender roles or where always there who knows.

I have always been one to argue that women and men are equal, but different. The most obvious case, men cannot give birth.

Before both side laigh at this, there are many sensitive men who would like or try to have that bond, or at leadst to prove that it isn't as hard as women make it out to be...

But the truth is we can't. Just as women will never be as strong or as fast as the male speices on average.

Neither is to say one is better. Just different. There are probably many more differences.

Womens liberation was fundamental in bringing the balance back from a culture that was very misogynistic. However as we continue, the separations are more obvious, and even women will argue this.

The glass celing for example. Many reports suggest that it's not because women are incapable that they hit this celing, it's for two other reasons.

1. Family. They want to get pregnant. Ok, a very noble cause. But if this is your goal then is it insane or even sexist to suggest you might get passed over? If a company is going to miss you for 6 months to a year then perhaps that's is a real concern in a competitive job market. Nothing against this choice, I have all the love in the world, and if guys could do it then I'm sure we would share the responsibility. But we can't. Does that mean women should get both? Again, equal but different. You still have the choice.

2. Competition. It has been shown that women often DON'T ASK for rasises or advancement. One study had it at about 5-1. If women were more aggressive in job advancement, I'm sure they would get what they want. It has been shown that men, whether correctly or often incorrectly, will take credit and seek advancement, where women will wat for their due rewards. In a society where one boss takes care of so many people, those wanting to advance need to speak up.

Some women do, and some get that. The ones that do rise very quickly. Contrary to belief (and I htink I have a collegue that agrees) while there may be a few 'old boys clubs' left, for the most part it is very refreshing to find a female rising to the challenge AND effectively promoting herself.

As someone who has been in the hiring process, I can honestly say I have never let sex get in the way of my decision. I have however found more men givging me the answers I was looking for. So make of that what you will. On the flip side when I find an exception female employee I tend to give her the nod over the gents. There's a stereotype against males. I tend to find females more loyal and less subversive then their male counterparts.

So it goes both ways.

IN conclusion. Equal but different. In the IQ question, I'm sure women do better at come things (like linguistics) and men do better in others (like math)

Can't we all just get along?>
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Old 10-12-2006, 08:39 AM   #29
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When people say "women make less then men" they're not talking about soccer moms. They're talking about women with the same education, experience and commitment to their jobs. The stats the point to women making less then men control for those other factors such as being soccer moms.
This has been my experience entirely. Even women with more experience and training at my company make the same or less than I do. And we're all young people here (25-30), many of them aren't even married let alone having babies.

I think the argument 'women leave to have babies so thats why they're paid less' is pretty bogus considering women who don't leave to have babies are also paid less than their male counterparts (again, in my experience).
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Old 10-12-2006, 08:54 AM   #30
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Quote:
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This has been my experience entirely. Even women with more experience and training at my company make the same or less than I do. And we're all young people here (25-30), many of them aren't even married let alone having babies.

I think the argument 'women leave to have babies so thats why they're paid less' is pretty bogus considering women who don't leave to have babies are also paid less than their male counterparts (again, in my experience).
Not just in your experience--it's widely substantiated by statistics.

Using I.Q. tests to measure intelligence is completely idiotic anyway. It's like measuring "athletic ability" by testing people's ability to skate. Any halfway intelligent person can see how that test is flawed.

Moreover, a lot of studies show that males are given a more encouraging environment in which to learn as children. Even female teachers call on male students more often, tolerate males interrupting females, and encourage male students more, on average.
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Old 10-12-2006, 08:55 AM   #31
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Quote:
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I think the argument 'women leave to have babies so thats why they're paid less' is pretty bogus considering women who don't leave to have babies are also paid less than their male counterparts (again, in my experience).
No you are wrong it is not bogus. It is not the only reason but it is certainly an important factor.
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Old 10-12-2006, 09:01 AM   #32
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Quote:
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I think the argument 'women leave to have babies so thats why they're paid less' is pretty bogus considering women who don't leave to have babies are also paid less than their male counterparts (again, in my experience).
But here's the thing. An employer is not allowed to ask if you are planning on having a baby any time soon. So while one woman may be career driven, there is no way to determine that. Also I have seen women who are career driven, and then 2 years later all they want is to have a baby.

A good example is my neighbour; she started a new job and a week later found out she was pregnant. So within 6 months of her starting she will have to leave, and not only will the employer have possibly wasted training on her, but they also have to keep a job open for her. At a smaller company that could be a challenge.

The other thing with maternaty is there is no guarentee the woman will come back. Or that she won't come back pregnant. One lady I worked with came back from Mat leave pregnant twice. So in the first 3.5 years I worked with her; we only worked together about 15 months.

I'm not saying that an employer's action are right, nor do I have a better solution. I'm just saying I understand the delema.
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Old 10-12-2006, 09:08 AM   #33
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No you are wrong it is not bogus. It is not the only reason but it is certainly an important factor.
Its one thing to tell me I'm wrong... but apparently another to tell me why? I know women who are dedicated to their careers, have no time for men/babies, and want to get ahead and rise to the top. Because they are women, it is more difficult. Why? Because of the chance they'll get pregnant??

What other reasons are there? Because they're not as smart as men (as the thread article implies)?
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Old 10-12-2006, 09:44 AM   #34
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Read above.
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Old 10-12-2006, 10:30 AM   #35
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Quote:
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Read above.
If you're referring to the pregnancy issue, I get that. But you said regarding pregnancy;

Quote:
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No you are wrong it is not bogus. It is not the only reason but it is certainly an important factor.
So what other reasons are there? Maybe I'm missing 'the above', can you point it out?
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Old 10-12-2006, 10:34 AM   #36
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Quote:
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Read above.

I have to admit to being slightly confused. Is it your opinion that:
A. the reason women are paid less than men on average is that men are smarter?
or
B. the reason women are paid less on average is because they're constantly having babies?

Both are absurd. But I want to know which one we're dealing with here.
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Old 10-12-2006, 10:46 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan View Post
I have to admit to being slightly confused. Is it your opinion that:
A. the reason women are paid less than men on average is that men are smarter?
or
B. the reason women are paid less on average is because they're constantly having babies?

Both are absurd. But I want to know which one we're dealing with here.
Myself, I would say part of it is B, however I would have chosen my words differently. It isn't that women are "constantly having babies"; as that notion is absurd. However for an employer to look at employee retention; one might be looking at the fact that nothing the employer can do to try and retain employees will have any effect on a woman deciding to have a child.

As I said, I don't think it is the factor, but it is one of the factors as to why women don't get paid as much as a male counterpart.
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Old 10-12-2006, 10:56 AM   #38
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I wrote this:

"A major reason why women don't make it as high in the workplace is voluntary absences to have children and raise them. Any man that takes off numerous years to raise his children would not climb up the corporate ladder as high as he would if he just worked the whole time."

What is so wrong with this arguement? Is it really such a stretch to suggest this as being one of the factors for why women don't make it as high up the corporate ladder as men?

This was the point I was making, it's a valid point and as I stated earlier, just one factor. I even agreed about the old boys club.

I never wrote a damn thing saying that men are smarter than women and that is why they get paid more, don't be a pekerhead.

Your liberal pc alarm must have got set off mistakenly, there is nothing offensive or unreasonable about my arguement.
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Old 10-12-2006, 11:02 AM   #39
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Even if men are smarter (which I don't think they are) we clearly are more apt to do really stupid things from time to time.
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Old 10-12-2006, 11:23 AM   #40
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Women are way smarter.

Proof?

Remember when you were a kid? Remember when you used to call up all your buddies to have a rock fight? Remember when you hit Jimmy in the face, and he fell down and how you all ran off like nobody would ever find out who was responsible?

Ever hear of a group of girls doing that?

Me neither.
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