Hugo Chavez calls Bush "The Devil"

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Sowa

Hey I didn't say the guy hasn't done things for his country, but he is doing everything he can to stay in power including trying to alter the constitution.

oh btw...



So where did you get their healthcare is superior to ours?

http://www.economist.com/displayStor...ory_id=5526589

It also discusses that he has given himself power over a large portion of the gov't money to provide those emergency programs without having to answer to anyone else.

"Absolute power corrupts absolutely" - Voltaire

Something to add:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13989898/site/newsweek/

Cowperson

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Sowa

Hey I didn't say the guy hasn't done things for his country, but he is doing everything he can to stay in power including trying to alter the constitution.

Are we talking about Chavez, or Bush? You have the gaul to call Chavez on altering the constitution (for the good of all people btw) when Bush has completely trampled the constitution in this country??? WOW!!!

oh btw...

So where did you get their healthcare is superior to ours?

From someone who has spent the past six months down there, working and living in three different cities in Venezuela. Chavez has done his best to face this issue head on and used the oil boom to provide access to healthcare for all citizens, which immediately makes it superior to the American system. Of course America is going to discount it because the system pulled in Cuban trained doctors to augment the system. In two short years Chavez's initiative has greatly imporved a situation that was dire.

http://www.economist.com/displayStor...ory_id=5526589

It also discusses that he has given himself power over a large portion of the gov't money to provide those emergency programs without having to answer to anyone else.

Seems that article agrees with what I am saying about Venezuela and their economy. Poverty is falling, even with the quick rising standard of living.

As to government control, is that different from the situation in this country as well? Oh, I know, we try and put on a brave face of practicing democracy, but the reality is that the President gets to do what ever he wants. Ain't the veto a wonderful thing? Ain't signing statements that completely change the meaning of bills wonderful things? All those things you accuse Chavez of, Bush is just as guilty. The major difference between them? Chavez does his work for the common people, and not the uber rich. Chavez tries to broach matters diplomatically and Bush does his at the barrel of a gun.

The economy is growing, and in areas other than petro-chemical, which is indicative of leadership with their eye on the ball.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela

"Absolute power corrupts absolutely" - Voltaire

Again, are we talking about Chavez, or Bush?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

So the US should have shown respect for Saddam?

For the office he holds, yes.

Does that mean they shouldn't be able to use military force against him? No, of course not.

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Are we talking about Chavez, or Bush? You have the gaul to call Chavez on altering the constitution (for the good of all people btw) when Bush has completely trampled the constitution in this country??? WOW!!!



From someone who has spent the past six months down there, working and living in three different cities in Venezuela. Chavez has done his best to face this issue head on and used the oil boom to provide access to healthcare for all citizens, which immediately makes it superior to the American system. Of course America is going to discount it because the system pulled in Cuban trained doctors to augment the system. In two short years Chavez's initiative has greatly imporved a situation that was dire.



Seems that article agrees with what I am saying about Venezuela and their economy. Poverty is falling, even with the quick rising standard of living.

As to government control, is that different from the situation in this country as well? Oh, I know, we try and put on a brave face of practicing democracy, but the reality is that the President gets to do what ever he wants. Ain't the veto a wonderful thing? Ain't signing statements that completely change the meaning of bills wonderful things? All those things you accuse Chavez of, Bush is just as guilty. The major difference between them? Chavez does his work for the common people, and not the uber rich. Chavez tries to broach matters diplomatically and Bush does his at the barrel of a gun.

The economy is growing, and in areas other than petro-chemical, which is indicative of leadership with their eye on the ball.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela




Again, are we talking about Chavez, or Bush?

First of all Bush has not tried to alter the Constitution to give him self more terms in office Chavez is doin just that... Chavez seeks "indefinite reelection"

Second, the programs he (chavez) is using are temporary solutions. As the poorest are doing better (I agree), the infrastructure of the country is collapsing. I am not saying he doesn't mean well, but he isn't being as near as effective as you claim. The skyrocketing price of oil should be helping that country a lot more than it is. I believe the fault should be placed at the feet of chavez as he rules that country single handedly...

Third what good is universal health care when the hospitals are decaying and outdated?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Venezuela's healthcare system is superior to the US.....right....just like the myth that Cuba's healthcare system is a model for the world....Lanny, normal I respect you because you atleast bring some facts to the table when you argue with people but that is the dumbest thing I have heard in a while.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Venezuela's healthcare system is superior to the US.....right....just like the myth that Cuba's healthcare system is a model for the world....Lanny, normal I respect you because you atleast bring some facts to the table when you argue with people but that is the dumbest thing I have heard in a while.

If its so obvious that this is a dumb thing to say it should be easy for you to prove him wrong. You say you respect Lanny for bringing facts to the table, so in order for others to respect you, shouldn't you do the same?

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Sowa

First of all Bush has not tried to alter the Constitution to give him self more terms in office Chavez is doin just that... Chavez seeks "indefinite reelection"

Second, the programs he (chavez) is using are temporary solutions. As the poorest are doing better (I agree), the infrastructure of the country is collapsing. I am not saying he doesn't mean well, but he isn't being as near as effective as you claim. The skyrocketing price of oil should be helping that country a lot more than it is. I believe the fault should be placed at the feet of chavez as he rules that country single handedly...

Third what good is universal health care when the hospitals are decaying and outdated?

Hmm.... have you followed the price of oil lately?

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Hmm.... have you followed the price of oil lately?

Yah, Chavez had a year of record breaking oil prices. Only in the last week has the price oil been dropping steadily, and it is still higher than it was 2 - 3 years ago.

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Hmm.... have you followed the price of oil lately?

Answered above... not sure why you even said this...

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Sowa

Answered above... not sure why you even said this...

Just askin... it's been falling lately.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

If its so obvious that this is a dumb thing to say it should be easy for you to prove him wrong. You say you respect Lanny for bringing facts to the table, so in order for others to respect you, shouldn't you do the same?

Don't worry its coming, I dont have the time at the moment to dig it up.

Another thing is, a lot of these arguements are based on the fact that the Health care is provided to all for free. But so what, when everyone gets nothing it doesn't make it better than a system where most people get good treatment and some get none.

[Deelow]

Originally Posted by MJK

WOW. You really have NO IDEA what Danny Williams has done for this province since came to power. Until you do, keep you random unsupported comments to yourself becuase you don't know what you are talking about.

Sorry to get off topic here but it had to be said.

So is he paying for the Greyhound tickets to Fort McMurray?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Sowa

Third what good is universal health care when the hospitals are decaying and outdated?

That's interesting, because Venezuela has poured a ton of money into this exact issue in the past two years. They may not have all the cool little gizmos that American hospitals do, but they provide services in a fashion that all people access to healthcare, no matter what their standing is. Care to discuss how 40 million Americans have no insurance and are not able to access healthcare at all? That's more than the population of Venezuela. Yeah, America's healthcare system ROCKS... if you're a multi-millionaire. All the gizmos and high priced doctors in the world mean NOTHING if you don't have access to them.

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

That's interesting, because Venezuela has poured a ton of money into this exact issue in the past two years. They may not have all the cool little gizmos that American hospitals do, but they provide services in a fashion that all people access to healthcare, no matter what their standing is. Care to discuss how 40 million Americans have no insurance and are not able to access healthcare at all? That's more than the population of Venezuela. Yeah, America's healthcare system ROCKS... if you're a multi-millionaire. All the gizmos and high priced doctors in the world mean NOTHING if you don't have access to them.

Well the Economist article from above is from Feb 2006 so apparently the money is not working...

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Don't worry its coming, I dont have the time at the moment to dig it up.

Another thing is, a lot of these arguements are based on the fact that the Health care is provided to all for free. But so what, when everyone gets nothing it doesn't make it better than a system where most people get good treatment and some get none.

Sorry bub, you just topped me. That's the dumbest thing you'll read on this board... until Redman12 posts again.

I'd also like to know where in this "system" that people get "good" treatment? I've been to doctors and dentists down here, and the service is pathetic. I've had my teeth completely ****ed up because the dentists down here don't have a clue what they are doing. My wife's back is screwed up to the point she can barely walk because some "specialist" wasn't that specialized. We never experienced problems with healthcare practitioners in Canada, but down here its like a freakin' sideshow. You go in, they run every single expensive test known to man, and then screw up a simple diagnosis. And they wonder why malpractice suits are so frequent? Its because the doctors down here are incompetant idiots!

I got a buddy who had a bug that he couldn't shake (some sort of bronchial problem). His folks have a place in Costa Rica and he got really sick down there when the illness flared up. He went to a doctor there and got treated. Hasn't had a problem since. No fancy tests, just a knowledgeable doctor that recognized the problem and treated it accordingly. All the gizmos and gadgets in the world are worthless without people who know WTF they are doing.

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Sorry bub, you just topped me. That's the dumbest thing you'll read on this board... until Redman12 posts again.

I'd also like to know where in this "system" that people get "good" treatment? I've been to doctors and dentists down here, and the service is pathetic. I've had my teeth completely ****ed up because the dentists down here don't have a clue what they are doing. My wife's back is screwed up to the point she can barely walk because some "specialist" wasn't that specialized. We never experienced problems with healthcare practitioners in Canada, but down here its like a freakin' sideshow. You go in, they run every single expensive test known to man, and then screw up a simple diagnosis. And they wonder why malpractice suits are so frequent? Its because the doctors down here are incompetant idiots!

I got a buddy who had a bug that he couldn't shake (some sort of bronchial problem). His folks have a place in Costa Rica and he got really sick down there when the illness flared up. He went to a doctor there and got treated. Hasn't had a problem since. No fancy tests, just a knowledgeable doctor that recognized the problem and treated it accordingly. All the gizmos and gadgets in the world are worthless without people who know WTF they are doing.

I would say you made a mistake of going to a doctor without researching... We are top 10 in the world when compared to every other country when it comes to every category in health service except coverage. If the US can't do anything right for you why the hell do you live here?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Sowa

I would say you made a mistake of going to a doctor without researching... We are top 10 in the world when compared to every other country when it comes to every category in health service except coverage. If the US can't do anything right for you why the hell do you live here?

I'm actually here making your country better, doing a job that none of your countrymen appear qualified to do. You can thank me later.

I went to the doctors that my PPO recommended and were considered quite good. I guess their idea of good and my idea of good differ substantially! But hey, they probably believe their press clippings just like you do, so there's no incentive to actually be good at something.

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

I'm actually here making your country better, doing a job that none of your countrymen appear qualified to do. You can thank me later.

I went to the doctors that my PPO recommended and were considered quite good. I guess their idea of good and my idea of good differ substantially! But hey, they probably believe their press clippings just like you do, so there's no incentive to actually be good at something.

So you are here for the money? So you are a capitalist? I don't buy press clippings as much as you buy whatever the extreme left wing conspiracy tanks put out. What is it that you do? Or is it top secret?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Sorry bub, you just topped me. That's the dumbest thing you'll read on this board... until Redman12 posts again.

I'd also like to know where in this "system" that people get "good" treatment? I've been to doctors and dentists down here, and the service is pathetic. I've had my teeth completely ****ed up because the dentists down here don't have a clue what they are doing. My wife's back is screwed up to the point she can barely walk because some "specialist" wasn't that specialized. We never experienced problems with healthcare practitioners in Canada, but down here its like a freakin' sideshow. You go in, they run every single expensive test known to man, and then screw up a simple diagnosis. And they wonder why malpractice suits are so frequent? Its because the doctors down here are incompetant idiots!

I got a buddy who had a bug that he couldn't shake (some sort of bronchial problem). His folks have a place in Costa Rica and he got really sick down there when the illness flared up. He went to a doctor there and got treated. Hasn't had a problem since. No fancy tests, just a knowledgeable doctor that recognized the problem and treated it accordingly. All the gizmos and gadgets in the world are worthless without people who know WTF they are doing.

You get crappy doctors in every nation. Your same arguement can probably be repeated by most people on this site. We have all had examples of lazy or incompetent doctors.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Sowa

I would say you made a mistake of going to a doctor without researching... We are top 10 in the world when compared to every other country when it comes to every category in health service except coverage.

Two things about this:

1. "Researching" your doctor is a privilege that the U.S. system affords to the wealthy. If you're poor, you can only access urgent care. If you're middle-class, odds are good you're in an HMO--which means that your insurance company chooses your doctor for you. Not to mention that if you live in a rural area you really don't have any choices.
2. "top 10 in the world"? I'd like to see some metrics and data on that. I do know that outcomes in cardiac care are substantially better in Canada and Europe. Other than that, I don't know. My guess is you don't either--but if you do have access to some facts about this, I'd be interested in taking a look at them.

I've experienced both health care systems. Canada's isn't perfect--far from it, in fact. But the U.S. health care system runs like it was invented by monkeys. It is literally the worst imaginable system, regardless of how good the care offered to wealthy urbanites is.