Unlike our neighbours to the south, we don't go around the world stirring **** up.
So basically what you're saying is we're over there killing ourselves to try and clean up american made messes..?
Is it an American-made mess when crazed zealots would kill thousands of innocent people? These so-called Islamic fundamentalists are targeting western values. Terrorism is not just an American problem.
I think this was being addressed in the other thread (Layton), but Canada gave birth to peacekeeping and it is our role to protect the innocent civilians. On top of that, as soon as the forces leave Afghanistan and claim it untameable, the criminals that have been chased from the cities into hiding in the countryside will be back and the country will return to being a safe haven for terrorists. Being a responsible global citizen means taking the tough jobs. I am proud that we are not shirking that responsibility. I don't like Harper and the Conservative government. I don't like their practices or what they stand for. However, on this issue, I think they have it right. Maybe for the wrong reasons (curry favour with the U.S., reason to beef up military budget), but sometimes you don't question the motives if you agree with the action.
We are funding these missions with the only real result being dead Canadians.
?
You think Canadians are safe from terrorism? Ever heard of Air India? The % of Canadian lives taken as a result of terrorism is higher than the % of American lives taken when you look at the population of the countries involved. Canada however decided to sweep it under the rug and pretend it wasn't an attack on Canada. It clearly was however when over 500 Canadians *could* have died in those attacks. However, we were spared when one plane was running late and the bomb killed the baggage handlers instead of the 200+ Canadians on board the plane. So we only lost 300 lives.
Yeah, Canadians are safe...
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Another Canadian was killed this morning I believe in a friendly fire accident from NATO war planes. No link right now.
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Another problem is that you just can't beat an entire nation that has so many allies. The problems in the middle east aren't going to be solved in Afghanistan. That was only safe haven for Al Qaida for a time. As it stands now, more terrorists are waiting in Pakistan who are more than willing to replace the dead or imprisoned. (Much the same as the States could never get a handle on Vietnam or Korea because they are being supported by external forces). The replacements can't be numbered but I am fairly certain, they will be never ending.
How sad.
Now lets wait for the bleating politicians, to scream about pulling out (again).
I cant belive these calls to leave, it seems just because we have had some loss of life, we must abandon the mission. Hmm? Good thing they werent in charge during our significant other conflicts in the past.
I didn't think NATO occupation of Afghanistan was a mistake at first, but now I am really starting to wonder what we are doing there. The Soviets couldn't beat the insurgency, so I don't see this half-assed attempt working either. Afghanistan has never been successfully invaded and occupied.
Even though the Canadian military claims that today was a success and progress was made, citing around 200 insurgent kills to our 4 losses, it is worth noting that the Soviets killed around 1,000 insurgents for every Russian killed and after 9 years, they were still forced out.
There are far too few troops involved in this occupation for it to ever be successful. There are just too many places for them to hide. Perhaps if the U.S. dedicated themselves to Afghanistan like they did to Iraq, but even then I doubt it would matter.
When the Soviets invaded the entire nation was up in arms. Today most Afghanis are enjoying more freedom than they have at any time since the 1970s. The current insurgency does not have popular support in Afghanistan, unlike the mujahadeen during the Soviet Invasion.
I met the Afghan ambassador to Canada earlier this year and ever since I have firmly believed the ISAF force in Afghanistan is there for the right reasons, doing the right thing, and has the support of the people.
I think you are wrong when you say Afghanistan has never been successfully invaded and occupied. The Taliban comprised of an international collection of radical muslims, only some of whom were Afghani. They ruled through fear and force; it was they who successfully occupied Afghanistan. I am echoing the words of the ambassador when I say this.
The ISAF force is there on an interim basis to ensure that the Taliban are weakened to such a degree that the fledgling democratic Afghan government will been strong enough--and the remaining Taliban forces weak enough--to maintain stability in the country for the foreseeable future.
When the Soviets invaded the entire nation was up in arms. Today most Afghanis are enjoying more freedom than they have at any time since the 1970s. The current insurgency does not have popular support in Afghanistan, unlike the mujahadeen during the Soviet Invasion.
While the insurgency during the Soviet invasion was likely bigger, they were also facing the Soviet war machine - not a NATO peace keeping force with Canada playing one of the bigger roles.
I also do not believe that the entire Afghan nation was up in arms and united against the Soviets. The Soviets had a friendship and military assistance treaty with the Afghan government and were in fact invited to help assist the Afghanistan government and fight the mujahideen - not unlike the current situation.
I met the Afghan ambassador to Canada earlier this year and ever since I have firmly believed the ISAF force in Afghanistan is there for the right reasons, doing the right thing, and has the support of the people.
I think you are wrong when you say Afghanistan has never been successfully invaded and occupied. The Taliban comprised of an international collection of radical muslims, only some of whom were Afghani. They ruled through fear and force; it was they who successfully occupied Afghanistan. I am echoing the words of the ambassador when I say this.
But even when the Taliban was in power, they never successfully controlled the whole country. The Northern Alliance still controlled large sections of Afghanistan. If you recall during the initial invasion, NATO forces were able to enter Aghanistan quite easily and set up bases in the areas where the Taliban had no strong presence.
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Well yes to be technical there were large areas in the north held by druglords (there was no Northern Alliance as such until the US-led invasion). Today there still are vast areas controlled by the same druglords.
I assumed it went without saying that modern Afghanistan referred to those areas under influence of Kabul and the government seated there, which consists of the major centres of the country--Jalalabad, Herat, Mazar-i-Sharif, Kandahar. Anyway, I'm not sure what trying to downplay the Taliban government is meant to achieve in this discussion.
As for the Soviets being invited into Afghanistan in the late 1970s, they were invited by a communist Soviet-puppet government that had seized power in a bloody coup d'etat. This seems to have been excluded from the Wikipedia article.
Well yes to be technical there were large areas in the north held by druglords (there was no Northern Alliance as such until the US-led invasion). Today there still are vast areas controlled by the same druglords.
I assumed it went without saying that modern Afghanistan referred to those areas under influence of Kabul and the government seated there, which consists of the major centres of the country--Jalalabad, Herat, Mazar-i-Sharif, Kandahar. Anyway, I'm not sure what trying to downplay the Taliban government is meant to achieve in this discussion.
Technically, The Northern Alliance was called the United Alliance for the Salvation of Afghanistan previously (and even after the invasion, they were still called the UASA locally--Northern Alliance was simply a western term, so of course it didn't exist until the american media took an interest in the region), but it definitely existed as a political body throughout the taliban rule. They were druglords, but they were much more organized than that term implies, as every country other than Pakistan and Saudi Arabia recognized the UASA as the legal government of Afghanistan.
12 years ago today - I was woken up by my Mum in the middle of the night to this news. This is the most detail I've seen my brother explain the incident in since it happened:
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12 years ago this gentle giant of a man, Mark Graham, was serving in the Panjwaii area of Afghanistan on Operation Medusa. We were licking our wounds from the previous day where we lost four brothers, and numerous injured. Still on the attack line and regrouping for another go at it.
Early in the morning, in a semi-relaxed state, most of us were eating or just finished breakfast rations. Mark was cold as usual, and standing by the fire we had going, used to burn our garbage. I looked over and saw him frantically rubbing his hands together and holding them out over the fire. I thought of going over to join him, but I continued eating my breakfast by my LAV3 armoured fighting vehicle. Meanwhile the American A-10's flew overhead attacking our target with the mighty 30mm cannon.
Then time slowed down. What happened in a millisecond seemed like a minute. I looked over at Mark and the fire. It looked like hundreds of sparklers were going off in it. My first thought was "Who the #### threw ammo in the fire?" Suddenly I couldn't see anything at all. The sandy "moon dust" as we called it, billowed everywhere. Shortly after, the deafening roar of the A-10's gun hit us. We were being shot by our own guys. ####.
We all scrambled into cover, most diving under or into our LAV's. When the dust started to settle the screams began. People calling for the medic. A couple other guys under the vehicle with me were clearly injured. I thought I'd get some first aid supplies and help them. I went to lift myself up with my arm, only to realize I couldn't. My left arm was numb and not responding. Something's wrong, but it doesn't hurt. Whatever, ignore it. I use my other arm to push myself up. I try to stand, now finding my left leg in a similar situation. I pause for a second. I then feel a extremely warm feeling on my face. Reaching up with my hand to find myself covered in blood. My shirt starting to get soaked. I now realized I had been hit. Shrapnel had torn through my face, shoulder, and buttocks (go ahead and laugh, I do. Buttocks). I was realizing I was no use to anyone in this state. Others came to my aid instead, bandaging me up as best they could. Eventually I was medevaced out by helicopter.
I never saw Mark again. He was hit directly and killed. About 40 of us were injured. Later reports show that one of the pilots mistook our fire for another target that was on fire.
I consider myself lucky, I had almost gone to that fire beside Mark. He was a great man I had the pleasure of working alongside, and will never be forgotten.
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