Root of all evil

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

It must be pretty ****ing boring to be a virgin locked in your house the entire winter.

You speaking from experience?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The work of the catholic church in africa isn't restricted to just catholics. The catholic church runs countless aids awareness and treatment programs throughout the continent, where the vast majority of those treated are not catholics.

Also, your links prove absolutely nothing other than the poorest countries have the highest per capita rates of aids, a statement which isn't exactly groundbreaking. Also, the data in your links points to the contrary of the point you're trying to make in regards to catholic 'lifestyle' having a positive impact on the transmission rates of HIV/AIDS. France, a country with roughly 90 percent of the population being Roman Catholic, is in the middle of the pack, while other predominantly catholic countries like El Salvador and Brazil are even higher.

And many Catholic countries are near the bottom (Croatia, Poland, Cuba, Hungary, Austria, Bolivia, Paraguay, etc...). I might also add that even though France is at the middle of the pack in that list, they are well below the weighted average (10.9 per 1000. France is at around 2 per 1000). At the very least, there is no correlation, so how can you say the Catholic Church is causing the spread of AIDS... expecially to the point that it is committing genocide? Heck, you haven't even proved that the Catholic Church is responsible for the spread of AIDS at all.

Poverty and education are the culprits according to all the data I've seen.

[Flash Walken]

You can't make the step in logic that if people are told they will get aids from using condoms, they will stop, thus increasing their chances of contracting HIV/AIDS through intercourse by 90 percent?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

You speaking from experience?

I'm not the one promoting abstinence and staying inside.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

You can't make the step in logic that if people are told they will get aids from using condoms, they will stop, thus increasing their chances of contracting HIV/AIDS through intercourse by 90 percent?

If their religous convictions are as strong as you are implying (ie. strong enough that they would let the Catholic church decide if they should us condoms), then their religious convictions should be strong enough that they will listen to the other teaching of the church. If they do not, then how can anyone blame the church? It's like all those fat people who try to blame McDonald's for making them fat or giving them heart disease.

[Flash Walken]

You should really read my posts before replying. I already stated CLEARLY that, "The work of the catholic church in africa isn't restricted to just catholics. The catholic church runs countless aids awareness and treatment programs throughout the continent, where the vast majority of those treated are not catholics."

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

You can't make the step in logic that if people are told they will get aids from using condoms, they will stop, thus increasing their chances of contracting HIV/AIDS through intercourse by 90 percent?

I'm fairly certain the Vatican is not saying "You will get AIDS from using condoms"... It is saying, "Using condoms will not stop the spread of AIDS".

There's a HUGE difference there.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

You should really read my posts before replying. I already stated CLEARLY that, "The work of the catholic church in africa isn't restricted to just catholics. The catholic church runs countless aids awareness and treatment programs throughout the continent, where the vast majority of those treated are not catholics."

What are the percentage of non-Catholics to Catholics treated by these church run organizations, and which percentage of each is now living with AIDS?

You have a long way to go to prove genocide is being conducted by the Catholic Church.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I'm fairly certain the Vatican is not saying "You will get AIDS from using condoms"... It is saying, "Using condoms will not stop the spread of AIDS".

There's a HUGE difference there.

“Every condom sold sends the buyer to acquire the AIDS virus.”

Fr. Gerald Magera Iga, in a campaign urging condom sellers in Uganda to burn up their stocks [Comtex newswire, January 25, 1999].

“Use of this product is harmful to health.”

Condom warning label suggested by Mexico City Archbishop Norberto Rivera Carrera [La Jornada (Mexico), August 29, 1997].

"But pseudo-scientific arguments have also been deployed by some conservative Catholics against the use of condoms as a means of HIV prevention. A recent BBC Panorama documentary found that some senior Catholic clerics were maintaining that not only were condoms theologically unsound, but were also spreading false information about the reliability and safety of condoms.

Thousands, even millions, of new HIV infections have therefore been attributed to the Catholic church’s, and in particular late pontiff’s, uncompromising opposition to the use of condoms. There are even moves for women who refused to use condoms on religious grounds and were infected with HIV by their husbands to be regarded as martyrs for the Catholic faith."

http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/DF198...28E771B42D.asp

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Thousands, even millions, of new HIV infections have therefore been attributed to the Catholic church’s, and in particular late pontiff’s, uncompromising opposition to the use of condoms. There are even moves for women who refused to use condoms on religious grounds and were infected with HIV by their husbands to be regarded as martyrs for the Catholic faith."

http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/DF198...28E771B42D.asp

See, the thing here is that it would be totally un-Catholic for someone to have unprotected sex if they know that they are HIV positive and they are going to infect someone. How can you blame the Catholic Church for people behaving un-Catholic?

This source has no empiracle evidence for their claim as is evident when they say "thousands, even millions". That is not science, and I find that ironic considering the video which started this debate.

Saying that the Catholic Church's condom discouragement, and encouragement of abstinence is genocide seems to be a faith-like claim when the science is not there to support that claim. Like mentioned previously, there are a world of factors that lead to why HIV spreads in some areas.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

“Every condom sold sends the buyer to acquire the AIDS virus.”

Fr. Gerald Magera Iga, in a campaign urging condom sellers in Uganda to burn up their stocks [Comtex newswire, January 25, 1999].

“Use of this product is harmful to health.”

Condom warning label suggested by Mexico City Archbishop Norberto Rivera Carrera [La Jornada (Mexico), August 29, 1997].

"But pseudo-scientific arguments have also been deployed by some conservative Catholics against the use of condoms as a means of HIV prevention. A recent BBC Panorama documentary found that some senior Catholic clerics were maintaining that not only were condoms theologically unsound, but were also spreading false information about the reliability and safety of condoms.

Thousands, even millions, of new HIV infections have therefore been attributed to the Catholic church’s, and in particular late pontiff’s, uncompromising opposition to the use of condoms. There are even moves for women who refused to use condoms on religious grounds and were infected with HIV by their husbands to be regarded as martyrs for the Catholic faith."

http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/DF198...28E771B42D.asp

How about we look at it this way....

You take the population of Africa which has rampant sex with multiple partners and you tell them they're safe if they use condoms. Those who give a **** in the first place (bearing in mind that MANY of these people don't care and are trying to spread the disease,*) are now looking at condoms to guarantee they will not contract the disease while they **** hundreds of people. What are the chances that it fails? High. At 97%, that's 3 ****s out of 100 that the thing breaks, and now you've got AIDS.

So yeah, condoms do kill.

*If you've ever read a Sunday at the Pool in Kigali, which is a look at life pre-genocide in Rwanda, you'd understand where I went with that comment.

[Flash Walken]

You're both talking as if people just won't have sex.

let's take your example, and assume that it isn't full of rampant misinformation:

People assume that condoms will protect them from aids no matter what, so they go off and **** a bunch of people, like they are want to do anyway by your characterization. So off they go, having 'rampant sex with multiple partners' protected, out of 100 ****s, 3 people are infected. That's pretty sad.

The other option being presented is that you just tell them to stop having sex, and being nymphomaniac continent that they are, they say 'to hell with that, what we're doing is biologically ingrained'. They think about condoms, because they are going to **** anyway, but are told that they can actually get aids just from the condoms! So they go off and **** 100 times, and out of 100 times, 100 people are infected.

What kills more, Condoms, or misinformation about condoms? My score is 100 - 3 in favour of the misinformation about condoms.

[FireFly]

No no, each person has sex 100 times and the condom fails 3 times out of those 100 times they have sex. so every person that even decides to use a condom has 3/100 opportunities to get AIDS as well.

You cannot fault the Catholic Church for individual people's desire to spread the disease. How many of those with the disease got it on purpose and spread it on purpose? Do your theories take that into consideration?

I'm not saying the Catholic Church is right, I'm saying that your belief that the Catholic Church is responsible because they are telling people not to use condoms is naive. It's likely that half those with AIDS spread it on purpose and how do you stop that? Do you really think telling them about condoms is going to help?

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

You're both talking as if people just won't have sex.

And no, I was never under that assumption. I'm under the assumption that people will have too much sex.

Ever live in a small town? When there's nothing better to do, what do you do in a small town? Two guesses... and they're both likely right.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by FireFly

No no, each person has sex 100 times and the condom fails 3 times out of those 100 times they have sex. so every person that even decides to use a condom has 3/100 opportunities to get AIDS as well.

I know. What would you rather have, a 3 percent chance or a 100 percent chance? I'd choose the 3.

You cannot fault the Catholic Church for individual people's desire to spread the disease. How many of those with the disease got it on purpose and spread it on purpose? Do your theories take that into consideration?

I'm not saying the Catholic Church is right, I'm saying that your belief that the Catholic Church is responsible because they are telling people not to use condoms is naive. It's likely that half those with AIDS spread it on purpose and how do you stop that? Do you really think telling them about condoms is going to help?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Are you on drugs? Are you seriously trying to tell me that 14 million africans WANTED to get and transmit aids?

Note to self, get some of what you're smoking.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Are you on drugs? Are you seriously trying to tell me that 14 million africans WANTED to get and transmit aids?

Naive much? Read "a Sunday at the Pool in Kigali" by Gil Courtemanche. First hand account of life in Africa.

It's not about 'wanting', it's about 'not caring' which may as well be the same thing. Much like in the gay community, it's called 'bug chasing' and yes, it happens. As a matter of fact, I had a friend infected by someone who was purposely spreading the disease. So laugh your ass off funny man, but to think it doesn't happen is not just naive, it's ignorant.

[Flash Walken]

I know all about bug chasing, and I've read a sunday at the pool in kigali. I am not naive about it.

What i'm laughing at is your preposterous assertion that more than 14 million africans have actively sought the aids virus for the purpose of infecting others.

Really, it's sad your friend was infected by someone trying to spread the disease. I can't imagine how one would feel in their situation or yours, but to propose that half of the population with aids in africa were willing participants is preposterous to a degree that shouldn't have to be explained.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I'm actually impressed that you went to such lengths to defend a position that is so fundamentally backwards.

Deliberately misleading a race of people regarding the health risks associated with PREVENTATIVE CARE of a disease that will kill at the very least 67 million africans in the next twenty years is systematic genocide.

And what 'race' would that be?

[Agamemnon]

So... increasing condom use... will increase AIDS? I've read the logic behind the assertion, but I just can't see the practicality. People were built to have sex with each other. You can tell them not to, but they will anyway, all over the world (here as much as there). I figure if a condom gives them more protection for something they're going to do anyway, how is it wrong to promote condom use to fight AIDS?

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by FireFly

No no, each person has sex 100 times and the condom fails 3 times out of those 100 times they have sex. so every person that even decides to use a condom has 3/100 opportunities to get AIDS as well.

You cannot fault the Catholic Church for individual people's desire to spread the disease. How many of those with the disease got it on purpose and spread it on purpose? Do your theories take that into consideration?

I'm not saying the Catholic Church is right, I'm saying that your belief that the Catholic Church is responsible because they are telling people not to use condoms is naive. It's likely that half those with AIDS spread it on purpose and how do you stop that? Do you really think telling them about condoms is going to help?

Wouldn't it just be better for the Church to promote the usage of Condoms *if* you plan on having sex. But then reaffirming their stance saying the only way to garentee protection from HIV is through abstinance.

That to me would make the most sense, and it isn't contradictory. I think it would be the most effective way of helping stop the spread of disease.