U.N.: Israeli airstrike hits U.N. observer post

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Barnes

Oh thanks for clearing it up for us. I am sure all the people of Lebanon involved in this "war" will appreciate getting there house/family blown up more if they knew this. Maybe Isreali childeren can write this on the next batch of shells they send into Lebanon.

Lebanon should send body parts to Isreal for childeren to sign.

Whether it is right or wrong is not what he is saying. He is saying it happens and NOT on purpose. People on this site really need to read what is posted.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by peter12

Have you ever heard of the fog of war? Friendly fire incidents are unfortunately a regular happen stance in war.

IIRC Friendly Fire incidents have had tragic effects on Canadians in Afganistan . (US accidentally hitting Canadian postitions).


I do not think that war is a precise science - yes, satalites can count the hair on my head, but missles, rockets and mortars tend to do damage to areas of significant radius.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Barnes

Oh thanks for clearing it up for us. I am sure all the people of Lebanon involved in this "war" will appreciate getting there house/family blown up more if they knew this. Maybe Isreali childeren can write this on the next batch of shells they send into Lebanon.

Lebanon should send body parts to Isreal for childeren to sign.

As has been said 2000 times, Hezbollah operates among the civilian populace, using them like shields.

But a day after criticizing Israel for “disproportionate” strikes against civilians, U.N. humanitarian chief Jan Egeland accused Hezbollah of “cowardly blending” among Lebanese civilians.
“Consistently, from the Hezbollah heartland, my message was that Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending ... among women and children,” Egeland said. “I heard they were proud because they lost very few fighters and that it was the civilians bearing the brunt of this. I don’t think anyone should be proud of having many more children and women dead than armed men.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13929959/

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Barnes

Oh thanks for clearing it up for us. I am sure all the people of Lebanon involved in this "war" will appreciate getting there house/family blown up more if they knew this. Maybe Isreali childeren can write this on the next batch of shells they send into Lebanon.

Lebanon should send body parts to Isreal for childeren to sign.

They usually help in sending bombs with nials coated in rat poison inside to Israel.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

They usually help in sending bombs with nials coated in rat poison inside to Israel.

People need to descriminate between Hezbollah members and the Lebanese population whom are 50% Christian btw. For a country that has up until recently been invloved in a civil war as well as an occupation from the friendly nation of Syria to be attacked at this scale proves that there is no government in the region that wants peace or stability on either "side". God forbid one nation in the region experiences some stability other than Isreal.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Barnes

People need to descriminate between Hezbollah members and the Lebanese population whom are 50% Christian btw. For a country that has up until recently been invloved in a civil war as well as an occupation from the friendly nation of Syria to be attacked at this scale proves that there is no government in the region that wants peace or stability on either "side". God forbid one nation in the region experiences some stability other than Isreal.

Lebanon is actually 25% Christian. Nice try though.
First bit, how do you distinguish Hizbollah from ordinary Lebanese when Hizbollah terrorists a) don't wear uniforms and b) camoflage themselves into ordinary neighbourhoods?

I found that second bit kind of funny. How is an occupation friendly at all? I would say that Syria is one of the primary causes of Lebanon's problems. You would be kidding yourself if you didn't think that Syria is one of the main backers of Hezbollah. Syria was also implicated in the assassination of Lebanon's prime minister last year.
For further reference of Syria's purported "friendliness check out this Reuter's article.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L26318834.htm
With friends like these, does Lebanon need enemies?

As for the last bit, if there is any government in the region that wants stability for all nations involved, it's Israel. A number of things support this position.
A) Israel spends an inordinate amount of money on military expenditures, when several domestic factors require a large injection of money that is otherwise taken up the military to fight terrorists.
A good example? You may know that the Jordan River is drying up, Israel most likely faces the fact of water shortages in the future. One method they are using is the desalination of salt water. A while back, I read a comment by an Israeli general that said for the cost of one weeks fighting in the Gaza Strip, you could build half a dozen desalination plants.

So simply from a cost-benefit perspective, Israel would want stability.

B) Every single peace venture over the last year has been American and Israeli initiated. With Israel always willing to give the most concessions.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Barnes

People need to descriminate between Hezbollah members and the Lebanese population whom are 50% Christian btw. For a country that has up until recently been invloved in a civil war as well as an occupation from the friendly nation of Syria to be attacked at this scale proves that there is no government in the region that wants peace or stability on either "side". God forbid one nation in the region experiences some stability other than Isreal.

Then you should note that those signed bombs are ment for hezbolah, not children in your comment. Children writing on bombs is as distasteful as children dressing up as (or becoming) homicide bombers or cheering deaths on the other side.

I think technically Lebanon has been the only unstable government in the region. Bashir has had no trouble with his little dictatorship, Hussein smoothly inherited his monarchy, Israel goes through changes of government more often than most democracies, but they are a pretty stable government.

Yes, it would have been nice if the young Lebanese government had been given the time to adjust to life without Syrian intervention or war and yes, it is hard to disarm or remove an organization as entrenched as hezbolah, but at least they could have put up a show of trying.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by peter12

Lebanon is actually 25% Christian. Nice try though.
First bit, how do you distinguish Hizbollah from ordinary Lebanese when Hizbollah terrorists a) don't wear uniforms and b) camoflage themselves into ordinary neighbourhoods?

Yeah, I am sure no one knows were they are hiding/living. It would be very difficult to ask the locals. You could even do this in Canada. How on earth does CNN find the guys for their inside Hezbollah segments?

Originally Posted by peter12

I found that second bit kind of funny. How is an occupation friendly at all? I would say that Syria is one of the primary causes of Lebanon's problems. You would be kidding yourself if you didn't think that Syria is one of the main backers of Hezbollah. Syria was also implicated in the assassination of Lebanon's prime minister last year.
For further reference of Syria's purported "friendliness check out this Reuter's article.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L26318834.htm
With friends like these, does Lebanon need enemies?

Sarcasim my friend.

Originally Posted by peter12

As for the last bit, if there is any government in the region that wants stability for all nations involved, it's Israel. A number of things support this position.
A) Israel spends an inordinate amount of money on military expenditures, when several domestic factors require a large injection of money that is otherwise taken up the military to fight terrorists.
A good example? You may know that the Jordan River is drying up, Israel most likely faces the fact of water shortages in the future. One method they are using is the desalination of salt water. A while back, I read a comment by an Israeli general that said for the cost of one weeks fighting in the Gaza Strip, you could build half a dozen desalination plants.

So simply from a cost-benefit perspective, Israel would want stability.

Saying and doing are very different animals. Which religion do you have to belong to to access water from these plants?

Originally Posted by peter12

B) Every single peace venture over the last year has been American and Israeli initiated. With Israel always willing to give the most concessions.

Everything is going quite swimmingly, no? Your replys seem indicate that you feel I am anti Iseral, which I am not. I make comments (I know, not in this thread) regarding the actions of both sides. I went to a high school that was predominatly Jewish and Arab and I was in the minority.

[peter12]

Yeah, I am sure no one knows were they are hiding/living. It would be very difficult to ask the locals. You could even do this in Canada. How on earth does CNN find the guys for their inside Hezbollah segments?
So, Israel just strolls in on foot and starts searching house to house? The Americans tried that in Mogadishu. Sort of turned into a disaster. These Hezbollah guys aren't especially known for mercy to their enemies. I'm sure the people that live around them wouldn't say a word to help the Israelis for fear of their own lives being taken
Sarcasim my friend.
I had a feeling you were being sarcastic after I re-read your post. Oh well never hurts to make sure.
Saying and doing are very different animals. Which religion do you have to belong to to access water from these plants?
Come on man. A quarter of the Israeli population is Arabic. None of them are dying of thirst as far as I know. My point was, if Israel could stop this, they would. It would benefit them socially and economically to stop the fighting in the Gaza and now in Lebanon.
Everything is going quite swimmingly, no? Your replys seem indicate that you feel I am anti Iseral, which I am not. I make comments (I know, not in this thread) regarding the actions of both sides. I went to a high school that was predominatly Jewish and Arab and I was in the minority.
Everything isn't going to well because the radical Islamists in charge want to wipe Israel and all the Jews in the Israel off the map, instead of negotiating a mutually beneficial peace agreement between all parties.
You do know about the Clinton talks in the 90s between Arafat and Barak? Barak made a stunning offer in the face of Hasidic opposition to give back 97% of land and co-sovereignty in Jerusalem. Arafat turned him down.
And now Hamas, Hezbollah and other Arabic parties concerned are now making Arafat look like a moderate. At least Arafat sat down and pretended to listen (while he used foreign aid to buy arms).

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Barnes

People need to descriminate between Hezbollah members and the Lebanese population whom are 50% Christian btw. For a country that has up until recently been invloved in a civil war as well as an occupation from the friendly nation of Syria to be attacked at this scale proves that there is no government in the region that wants peace or stability on either "side". God forbid one nation in the region experiences some stability other than Isreal.

How can Israel possibly do that when Hezbollah doesn't follow the rules of war, and differs itself from the civilian population?

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Barnes

Saying and doing are very different animals. Which religion do you have to belong to to access water from these plants?

Any one of the myriad religious groups (see my list above) that resides in Israel or the West Bank. The water is not even reserved only for citizens, travelers, foregin workers, temperary visa holders, and others all have access. Israel also exprots the desalination technology to Africa and Turkey.

Only in Syria, Saudi Araibia, Libya and the Gaza Strip are there restrictions in who gets water - No Jews need apply.

Also, IIRC, it is Lebanon that was building a dam at the headwaters of the Jordan River. There was a scuffle at the UN about it, Lebanon was going to divert more water than was enviromentally sound.

Everything is going quite swimmingly, no?

You mean in regards to the peace treaties with Egypt, Jordan and Turkey?
Well, the peace with Egypt and Jordan could be better.
The peace with Turkey is just fine. The economic, culteral, and humanitarian exchanges have gone quite well. (Israel sent teams of rescuers to Turkey after their last bug earthquake to help out. Interesting how those teams from Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Iran never got there.)

Your replys seem indicate that you feel I am anti Iseral, which I am not. I make comments (I know, not in this thread) regarding the actions of both sides. I went to a high school that was predominatly Jewish and Arab and I was in the minority.

Your replys seem to indicate that you think that there is only one religion or one ethnicity in Israel. When I was there I hung around with Christians and Bhudists, Africans and Orientals in cafes owned and operated by Muslims and as a caucasian, I was in the minority.

[Barnes]

If you asked that Muslim where he was from, his reply would be?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Trying to drag this back onto topic, according to separate reports on NPR, this post has been around almost 40 years and was well known by all regional powers, so the UN is extremely upset about his action. Some members of the Israel government (not identified) have demanded an investigation. Seems this is not an incident of "fog of war" or "confusion" based on the NPR reports. It will be interesting to see this play out.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Trying to drag this back onto topic, according to separate reports on NPR, this post has been around almost 40 years and was well known by all regional powers, so the UN is extremely upset about his action. Some members of the Israel government (not identified) have demanded an investigation. Seems this is not an incident of "fog of war" or "confusion" based on the NPR reports. It will be interesting to see this play out.

I agree with this, completely, but will hold judgement until any investigation is complete. But questions have to be asked.

1) Where was the nearest Hezbollah structure or base

2) Was the destruction caused by a direct hit or splash damage.

3) Was there any kind of warning given through the UN Chain of Command

4) What was the reason for the attack.

5) What munitions were used.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

In the meantime - Palestinian refugees have their very own UN department (unlike Rwandan, Bosnian, or Kurdish refugees). There have been state sponsored executions in Gaza (Arafat's brother, the former PA Gaza Governor was dragged out into the street and sumarily shot by Hamas forces), Canadians have been tortured in Saudi Arabia and killed in Iran - where is the world outcry again?

standards like WMDs. chemical, biological, nuclear horrors. only israel can have them, only israel can devlop the infrastructure.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Better check which side of the double standard you are on.

yeah.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Yet is doing everything it can to get ahold of nuclear weapons for the express purpose of launching a first strike against Israel - so much for that treaty.

how aboot the express purpose of the ability to defend itself? two neighbouring countries with oil interests have been invaded. i'd be pretty freaky if that were me.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

A Quality source please?

let's put aside documentaries on it on the american history channel, hundreds of personal accounts, and the historical record.

http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.htm

Survivors also report that the torpedo boat crews fired on the inflated life boats launched by the crew after the captain gave the order "prepare to abandon ship."This order had to be rescinded because the crew was unable to stand on the main deck without being fired upon and the life rafts were destroyed as they were launched.

the amount of information available on the USS liberty is totally prolific, i'm shocked that more people don't know aboot it - it's a big deal.

israel has a huge history of false flag operations, and not just the king david hotel bombing and abu nidal.

do you have a source on germany invading poland in 1939? because that's at the same stage of accepted information as the USS liberty attack. books, documentaries, historical record, personal accounts, veterans organizations, war crimes documents, geez even dean rusk, the US secretary of state at the time was vocal aboot it.

unreal.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

You just keep posting that lie and I will just keep supplying the quote from that congress - "The aim of Zionism is to create for the Jewish people a home in Eretz*-Israel secured by International law."

Jabotinsky wrote in The Iron Wall:

There can be no discussion of voluntary reconciliation between us and the Arabs, not now, and not in the foreseeable future. All well-meaning people, with the exception of those blind from birth, understood long ago the complete impossibility of arriving at a voluntary agreement with the Arabs of Palestine for the transformation of Palestine from an Arab country to a country with a Jewish majority. Each of you has some general understanding of the history of colonization. Try to find even one example when the colonization of a country took place with the agreement of the native population. Such an event has never occurred.


this isn't a straw man. Jabotinsky was right there with Theodor Herzl and Chaim Weizmann as the zionist frontmen.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Israel accepted the UN partition plan - the Arab countries declared war.

the arab countries declared war for the same stupid reasons all countries declare war - selfish agendas, resources, nationalism, etc. jordan actually invaded syria in the same war!

"the arab countries" - ha!

doesn't change the fact that zionism is colonialism, doesn't change anything.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Standard anti-semetic rhetoric - blame the victums for the Holocaust, The Jews were in on it.

this high-level cooperation is cited in many books on the subject, most notably "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by shirer. it is fact.

i get it. SOME jews sell out others, so suddenly it's anti-semitic rhetoric. ah.

you are really sick.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

FACT - the only ethnicly cleansed areas of the world are Saudia Arabia, Syria, Libya and the Gaza Strip - all are Judenrein - WITHOUT JEWS.
Jews cannot live or travel to the first three countries - and war accounts for the Jews currently in Gaza.

so bulldozing 500 year old homes isn't ethnic cleansing? unreal. totally unreal.

i'm not defending saudi arabia - in fact do a search on my posts involving saudi arabia. results may surprise to all those that view the world through a black/white filter.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

In Israel, however - Muslims, Christians, Bhudists, B'Hai, Wiccans, peoples of African, Vietnamese, Latin American, and Caucasian decent, people of different sexual orientation all live as best they can together.

How many Bosnian Muslim refugees were allowed in Syria? Saudi Arabia? Iran? A few planes full found saftey and comfort in Israel.

bosnian muslims hid tens of thousands of jews form croat-nazi death squads during the war, and have received citations and monuments for their efforts. what's your point?

syria, saudi arabia, and iran are run by some sick regimes. i'm not defending them.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Please tell me, when was the Gay Pride day held in Syria? Saudi Arabia? Iran? Egypt? Israel has one every year - this year likely in Jerusalem!

Are women voting in Syria? Iran? Saudi Arabia? They are in Israel.

ah. i get it.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Ranks up there with the pics of Palestinian Children dressed as homacide bombers.

Your post has clearly over stepped the bounds of anti-Israel government and anti-Israel policy comments. Accusing Jews of activly working with the Third Riech and ethnic cleansing has malicious and anti-semetic overtones.

i'm going to leave this to the other board members to see for themselves.

your post makes accusations that are very serious. i'd advise you to watch it, lest i return the favour.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Barnes

If you asked that Muslim where he was from, his reply would be?

What difference would that make?

Ok, Say I asked, and he said he was from Palestine. So? Ask a Quebec speratist where they are from - do they say 'Quebec', or 'Canada', or 'Occupied Quebec'? No difference if he said Ramallah or Gaza City.

Am I from Canada, or Toronto, or Calgary?

Where are you from? Canada, Calgary, Lebanon, Israel?

It is all subjective depending on how the person chooses to identify themself.

The point is that the cafe waiter was doing his thing in Israel - working, getting paid, free to move about, free to practice his muslim faith. Israel is a multi-faith, multi-ethnic, multi-sexual orentation, multi-political spectrum country.

Is he content or disgruntled? does he feel treated as a second class citizen or relish in his freedom? Is he rich or poor? These are issues for citizens in every country.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Looger

let's put aside documentaries on it on the american history channel, hundreds of personal accounts, and the historical record.

http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.htm

Survivors also report that the torpedo boat crews fired on the inflated life boats launched by the crew after the captain gave the order "prepare to abandon ship."This order had to be rescinded because the crew was unable to stand on the main deck without being fired upon and the life rafts were destroyed as they were launched.

the amount of information available on the USS liberty is totally prolific, i'm shocked that more people don't know aboot it - it's a big deal.

israel has a huge history of false flag operations, and not just the king david hotel bombing and abu nidal.

do you have a source on germany invading poland in 1939? because that's at the same stage of accepted information as the USS liberty attack. books, documentaries, historical record, personal accounts, veterans organizations, war crimes documents, geez even dean rusk, the US secretary of state at the time was vocal aboot it.

unreal.

Not to get involved in this debate, however there are some other things that should be published here.

1) Israel asked the U.S. navy if it had any ships in the area, the Navy denied that there were any ships in the area. Israel sent a message declaring any vessels to be within 100 miles of the Sinai coast to be within the maritime exclusion zone. Israel also warned that it would defend its coast line.

2) Israel went to U.S. naval attache Ernest Castle that it would defend its coast and sink any unidentified vessels, and that the American's should either identify thier ships or remove them. The American Navy didn't disclose any information on the Liberty.

3) After the Air Attack, the Israel Navy dispatched three torpedo boats to investigate a ship with Western markings and they dispatched two helicopters for search and rescue. Yitzak Rabin also order the Torpedo boats to hold fire until a positive identification could be made.

4) Cmdr Mcgonagle of the Liberty saw the three torpedo boats approaching and order that they be engaged with a machine gun. He then ordered a cease fire after several shots when he saw the Israel Naval ensign, and saw a attempt at communication by the lead torpedo boats signal lamp. The order was misunderstood, and the Liberty continued to engage the torpedo boats with two heavy machine guns. The Torpedo boats fired two torpedo's, one struck forward of the superstructure exploding into a cargo area causing most of the causualties.

The Israeli boats then engaged the survivors (which in my mind was a terrible wrong). However this claim is still in dispute by witnesses on the torpedo boats, and the lack of an entry into the captains log.

After the attack, and after the boats identity was confirmed, Israel's torpedo boats offered to assist in the search and rescue which was refused by the Americans.

The attack on the U.S.S. Liberty was caused by a gross breakdown in communications between the U.S. and Israel, and between the Captain of the Liberty and its crew, and between the commander of the Torpedo floatilla and thier chain of command.


5)

One thing that was missing from the story, but has been confirmed by other sources is that after the air attack.

[Looger]

well CaptainCrunch, i wasn't going to get into the Lyndon Johnson aspect of this...

but many believe he put that ship in those waters to get sunk. not really a new thing for that guy!

<bad joke. sorry>

fighters making passes would see the flag. they in fact did. israeli pilots have gone on record saying they refused the order after id, but were told to do it or face court-martial.

i for one would bet that there was a backroom deal between elements of the US command and elements of the israeli military / command structure to stage a false flag attack and blame it on egypt. not too out of precedent for either party.

EDIT the attack lasted over three hours and involved two separate groups of planes and torpedo attacks. mistaken identity? GIVE ME A BREAK.

i talked to an old retired naval officer in the states that claims the spooks in the hold were all israel was actually after, as they were relaying israeli troop positions to egypt via cyprus (???), hence the torpedos coming hours after the first attack, to let the ship prepare and seal up, hitting amidships to get the equipment only. who really knows.

israle false flags ALL THE TIME. it is fact, mossad agents write books aboot it, bragging like dressing up as arabs and throwing rocks is something to be proud of.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Looger

standards like WMDs. chemical, biological, nuclear horrors. only israel can have them, only israel can devlop the infrastructure.

Of course India and Pakistan have none of those. Israel is not the only country with nuclear weapons.

how aboot the express purpose of the ability to defend itself? two neighbouring countries with oil interests have been invaded. i'd be pretty freaky if that were me.

Iran's President has anounced to the world that the reason Iran wants the bomb is to destroy Israel - not protect it from the US or coalition forces in Afganistan.

let's put aside documentaries on it on the american history channel, hundreds of personal accounts, and the historical record.

http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.htm

Survivors also report that the torpedo boat crews fired on the inflated life boats launched by the crew after the captain gave the order "prepare to abandon ship."This order had to be rescinded because the crew was unable to stand on the main deck without being fired upon and the life rafts were destroyed as they were launched.

the amount of information available on the USS liberty is totally prolific, i'm shocked that more people don't know aboot it - it's a big deal.

I knew about the incident - the part regarding firing on the inflated boats was news to me. That is a good source - If only the rest of your comments were backed up this way.

israel has a huge history of false flag operations, and not just the king david hotel bombing and abu nidal.

Like this one. The bombing of the King David in 1948 was an operation undertaken by the Irgun - a non sanctioned milita (which was disarmed by the Israeli government shortly after they sunk an Irgun ship loaded with arms in the Tel-Aviv harbour.) The King David hotel was the headquaters of the British Army in 1948 and is considered by some to have been a military target. (I won't hide behind generalizations)

do you have a source on germany invading poland in 1939? because that's at the same stage of accepted information as the USS liberty attack. books, documentaries, historical record, personal accounts, veterans organizations, war crimes documents, geez even dean rusk, the US secretary of state at the time was vocal aboot it.

Vocal about what? Germany going to war in 1939?

Jabotinsky wrote in The Iron Wall:

There can be no discussion of voluntary reconciliation between us and the Arabs, not now, and not in the foreseeable future. All well-meaning people, with the exception of those blind from birth, understood long ago the complete impossibility of arriving at a voluntary agreement with the Arabs of Palestine for the transformation of Palestine from an Arab country to a country with a Jewish majority. Each of you has some general understanding of the history of colonization. Try to find even one example when the colonization of a country took place with the agreement of the native population. Such an event has never occurred.


this isn't a straw man. Jabotinsky was right there with Theodor Herzl and Chaim Weizmann as the zionist frontmen.

You are working off two different things - Yes, Jabotinsky wrote that and he was a radical. BUT, his writings and influence came well after the First Zionist Congress (Jabotinsky was 17 and still in Russia at the time.)
My quote and the ideals still stand.

the arab countries declared war for the same stupid reasons all countries declare war - selfish agendas, resources, nationalism, etc. jordan actually invaded syria in the same war!

"the arab countries" - ha!

doesn't change the fact that zionism is colonialism, doesn't change anything.

Zionism is the term for the National asperations of the Jewish people to live in their ancient homeland as the Jewish Nation.

this high-level cooperation is cited in many books on the subject, most notably "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by shirer. it is fact.

i get it. SOME jews sell out others, so suddenly it's anti-semitic rhetoric. ah.
you are really sick.

No, sick is taking a single incident and turning it into proof of an entire peoples attitudes.

Again from the general to the specific:

The incident in question - The Zionist leaders of Budapest Hungary (a group of about 20) did make a deal with Eichman that they would be allowed to leave Hungary if they did not inform the general Jewish community of Budapest of the Nazi intentions.

You interpret that as "The Jews and Zionist leaders were in cahoots with and helped out the Nazis"

I interpret it as desperate people just trying to survive. By your interpretation, then, I guess the Jews who had to prep those going to the gas chambers, or account for peoples belongings were really Zionist Nazis.

Who's sick?

so bulldozing 500 year old homes isn't ethnic cleansing? unreal. totally unreal.

Homes that old get torn down in Europe all the time.

But, I guess I'm ignorant - please explain how demolishing 500 year old homes is ethnic clansing?

I thought ethnic cleansing was one ethnicity removing another ethnicity by any means nessascary from a country. Last I checked there were multi-faiths and multi-ethnicites throughout Israel.

Most of those homes would have been demolished in Palestinian areas, right? Well, you could make the case that those areas were ethnically cleansed - NO JEWS!

You could also make a case about the village of Lod (the area where Ben Gurion Airport is). Those homes were demolished to make way for the airport. Some homes were paid for, some were confiscated by the government and yes - no Arab (or Jew, or Christian, etc.) will live there again - it is now an airport. But that is government and progress, happens often, especially in North America when a city wants a road built - not ethnic cleansing.

i'm not defending saudi arabia - in fact do a search on my posts involving saudi arabia. results may surprise to all those that view the world through a black/white filter.

Didn't say you were defending them, just using them as examples.

bosnian muslims hid tens of thousands of jews form croat-nazi death squads during the war, and have received citations and monuments for their efforts. what's your point?

Israel was there for them while their Muslim brothers were not.

syria, saudi arabia, and iran are run by some sick regimes. i'm not defending them.

Again, didn't say you were, just examples.

i'm going to leave this to the other board members to see for themselves.

your post makes accusations that are very serious. i'd advise you to watch it, lest i return the favour.

Calling Jews Nazis is anti-semetic. Period. Saying Jew collectively participated and aided the Nazis in the Holocaust is the same as calling Jews Nazis.

Doing so is not calling into question any policy of the Government of Israel.
Is the IDF using too much force? Should they have stopped by now? SJould they be the first to stop? Are they justified in their actions? Those are debatable questions and one who argues against Israel can be called anti-Israel but not anti-semetic. Accusations of ethnic cleansing can even be anti-Israel withoput being anti-semetic.

Trying to call Jews Nazis and warmongers does not call into question and policy. It has malisious intent and can rightly be called anti-semetic.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

What difference would that make?

Ok, Say I asked, and he said he was from Palestine. So? Ask a Quebec speratist where they are from - do they say 'Quebec', or 'Canada', or 'Occupied Quebec'? No difference if he said Ramallah or Gaza City.

Am I from Canada, or Toronto, or Calgary?

Where are you from? Canada, Calgary, Lebanon, Israel?

It is all subjective depending on how the person chooses to identify themself.

The point is that the cafe waiter was doing his thing in Israel - working, getting paid, free to move about, free to practice his muslim faith. Israel is a multi-faith, multi-ethnic, multi-sexual orentation, multi-political spectrum country.

Is he content or disgruntled? does he feel treated as a second class citizen or relish in his freedom? Is he rich or poor? These are issues for citizens in every country.

Fisrt of all this is the stupidest post I have ever read.

Second I am from Montreal originally and comparing it to Quebec's political situation is only embarassing yourself.

Third, I thought the Muslim guy was the owner and operator of the cafe, now he's just a waiter?

Forth, if this is the flag that represents a multi-faith nation then slap my ass and call me Gloria.