Israel and Lebanon now fighting

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Go4Gold

Well this should be their (UN) time to shine, Isreal was created by the UN and it's time for them to step up to the plate and take control.

Take control with what?

In other news, CNN is reporting that Hezbollah may be attempting to transfer the prisoners to Iran. Iran and Syria have both put their military on standby. This is going to get much more messy really quick.

[peter12]

That's because Jordon and Egypt have a military. The PA and Lebanon are screwed in that regard. Just like the U.S., Israel will beat down the weakest kid on the block to make their point. Israel just has to hope that all of the other kids don't tire of this act, gang up on them, and beat the living crap out her.

The events of the past 60 years contradict every point you make in your little post.

Hamas may be an elected government, but it still persists in engaging in terrorist activities. Except now that it is a "state", they aren't just terrorist activities but acts of war.

EDIT: For insults, I don't want to be childish.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by peter12

Take control with what?

In other news, CNN is reporting that Hezbollah may be attempting to transfer the prisoners to Iran. Iran and Syria have both put their military on standby. This is going to get much more messy really quick.

Well, I guess we'll find out if Iraq transfered WMDs to Syria quick enough.

I agree wth you, this is going to spin out of control very quickly. The whole Middle East appears ready to come unglued.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Well, I guess we'll find out if Iraq transfered WMDs to Syria quick enough.

I agree wth you, this is going to spin out of control very quickly. The whole Middle East appears ready to come unglued.

While I completely disagree with you on the motives of Israel...

Israel has shown itself to be quite fearless in the regional politics. The terrorists have kicked open a hornets nest and rightly or wrongly the region is going to face the consequences.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by peter12

That's because Jordon and Egypt have a military. The PA and Lebanon are screwed in that regard. Just like the U.S., Israel will beat down the weakest kid on the block to make their point. Israel just has to hope that all of the other kids don't tire of this act, gang up on them, and beat the living crap out her.

You're so precious Lanny. The events of the past 60 years contradict every point you make in your little post.

Hamas may be an elected government, but it still persists in engaging in terrorist activities. Except now that it is a "state", they aren't just terrorist activities but acts of war.

Really? Prove me wrong. Care to show where the Palestinian Authority or Lebanon have a military of any significance? Also, prove that the United States has NOT been backing Israel and that Israel is not picking on the weakest link. Why not go after Syria? I do believe they're the biggest supporter of Hamas. Why not go after them? And on't give me any crap about terrorist activities. That whole situation is a game of one-upsmanship where Israel uses her military to terrorize the Palestinians. Its the same crap on both sides. NO ONE is innocent. They both need a good bitch-slapping.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Go4Gold

I say declare the whole area (Isreal and Lebanon) under UN rule immediately. If they can't make it work, then the rest of the world will have to make it work for them. Treat them all like little children.

Its not like the UN has a good track record for such things. Something needs to be done; I think NATO should get involved.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Really? Prove me wrong. Care to show where the Palestinian Authority or Lebanon have a military of any significance? Also, prove that the United States has NOT been backing Israel and that Israel is not picking on the weakest link. Why not go after Syria? I do believe they're the biggest supporter of Hamas. Why not go after them? And on't give me any crap about terrorist activities. That whole situation is a game of one-upsmanship where Israel uses her military to terrorize the Palestinians. Its the same crap on both sides. NO ONE is innocent. They both need a good bitch-slapping.

I was more referring to the Israelis crushing the Arab coalitions of the 1960s and 1970s.

Israel isn't afraid to go after Hamas in Syria. They buzzed the Syrian president's house/palace (he lives in luxury, while the majority of his "subjects" live below the poverty line). Israel is probably ramping up for an offensive against Syria. It'll be the same old story, Syria's regular army, consisting mainly of cold war equipment will be crushed in a few days.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Viewpoints that you share may not be relevant either. I guess we will see in the next few years what really happens in the Middle East....whether its straight political or theist/political is a fine line in that area. I dont ignore the FACT that the vast majority of issues in the middle east have a theistic base to them. That includes almost everything done by Israel or its neighbors. To not see that is being blind.

That's never really been up for debate. Yes underlying cause of the problems is religion, but the fact of the matter is that the environment that these problems thive in was created through political dealings and decisions. The real topic at hand is how everyone feels about Israels reaction to the situation. Why does the problem exist? That's really irrelvant in this debate, the real question, is, is Isreal justified making an offensive move into a neighbour in order to protect itself?

But since you seem to have no intention of discussing that, would you like to address why it was that you brought up American Christian Zionists in your defence of calling Israeli Jews fundamentalists?

I'm thinking it was one of the following:
1) honest mistake
2) saw opportunity to once again throw out quipe about crazy fundamentalist Christians regardless of how irrelevant to the topic at hand they might be
3) wanted to find out if eskimos really are good at making sand castles

I think I know the answer.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Go4Gold

Well this should be their (UN) time to shine, Isreal was created by the UN and it's time for them to step up to the plate and take control.

The UN doesn't have that option, it would take the combined efforts of the 5 permanent members of the Security Council to allow for UN involvement.

The UN doesn't 'choose' its conflicts, its told where to go and what to do by its member-states. If they choose not to involve the UN in Israel/Lebanon to a great extent, thats their choice, not the UN's.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by peter12

I was more referring to the Israelis crushing the Arab coalitions of the 1960s and 1970s.

You gotta admit that things have changed quite a bit since then. The other midle easten countries are armed much better than they were back then. Israel is also much better armed as well, but I think the advantage they once had may not be as extreme. I don't think they will crush anyone of the major countries in the Middle East without things getting nuclear. The biggest thing that Israel must guard against is pulling together the Arab countries. They do that, and all hell is going to break loose. I pitty the Americans in Iraq if the region unites against Israel. The Americans will get run over like its the Alamo and you'll see a huge offensive against Israel from all sides.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

You gotta admit that things have changed quite a bit since then. The other midle easten countries are armed much better than they were back then. Israel is also much better armed as well, but I think the advantage they once had may not be as extreme. I don't think they will crush anyone of the major countries in the Middle East without things getting nuclear. The biggest thing that Israel must guard against is pulling together the Arab countries. They do that, and all hell is going to break loose. I pitty the Americans in Iraq if the region unites against Israel. The Americans will get run over like its the Alamo and you'll see a huge offensive against Israel from all sides.

Why does the Left want the West to lose? Just to mock and say I told you so?

The only armed forces even close to being on a par with the Israelis in the Middle East is Egypt. And they are subsidized and supplied heavily by the USA. So is Egypt going to get involved? Every indication from the past 15 years says that Egypt is trying to swing more to the West.

So no, that leaves the Syrians, which are still driving T-55s and T-72s and flying Mig-21s. The Israelis will run over the Syrians.

So who does that leave in the Middle Easy, Lanny?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by peter12

Why does the Left want the West to lose? Just to mock and say I told you so?

What's with this left ****? I haven't voted anything but conservative my whole life! Jesus, its called doing the CORRECT thing, not the RIGHT thing.

The only armed forces even close to being on a par with the Israelis in the Middle East is Egypt. And they are subsidized and supplied heavily by the USA. So is Egypt going to get involved? Every indication from the past 15 years says that Egypt is trying to swing more to the West.

So no, that leaves the Syrians, which are still driving T-55s and T-72s and flying Mig-21s. The Israelis will run over the Syrians.

So who does that leave in the Middle Easy, Lanny?

Don't discount Egypt. Their relationship with the west is NOT heavily supported by the people. If push comes to shove, the Arabs will support the Arabs. And don't discount the Iranians and the Iraqis. Israel could very easily polarize the region. If that happens, the whole place blows up and you're going to see all hell break loose. This is the strategy that the Islamists have been counting on when it comes to Israel. They WANT Israel to lashout and bring all the Arab nations together. If this happens, all bets are off IMO.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

That's never really been up for debate. Yes underlying cause of the problems is religion, but the fact of the matter is that the environment that these problems thive in was created through political dealings and decisions. The real topic at hand is how everyone feels about Israels reaction to the situation. Why does the problem exist? That's really irrelvant in this debate, the real question, is, is Isreal justified making an offensive move into a neighbour in order to protect itself?

But since you seem to have no intention of discussing that, would you like to address why it was that you brought up American Christian Zionists in your defence of calling Israeli Jews fundamentalists?

I'm thinking it was one of the following:
1) honest mistake
2) saw opportunity to once again throw out quipe about crazy fundamentalist Christians regardless of how irrelevant to the topic at hand they might be
3) wanted to find out if eskimos really are good at making sand castles

I think I know the answer.

If you werent such a prick you might be a nice guy. Doubtful though...

heres the original post...
Originally Posted by CNN
JERUSALEM (CNN) -- The Israeli Cabinet authorized "severe and harsh" retaliation on Lebanon after Hezbollah guerillas kidnapped two soldiers and killed three others in a cross-border raid Wednesday.

Israel quickly blamed the Lebanese government for the raid -- and charged it with the soldiers' safe release -- and the Israel Defense Forces began hammering Lebanon with artillery and airstrikes hours before the Cabinet met to discuss a response.
Israel called Wednesday's abductions an act of war, and Maj. Gen. Udi Adam, head of Israel's Northern Command, said he has "comprehensive plans" to battle Hezbollah throughout Lebanon, not just in its southern stronghold.


I suggest that one of the reasons it might have happened is a theistic issue and you have a problem with it?

My first comment was
Fundamentalists killing Fundamentalists....
Boil Boil Toil and trouble......

and you had a problem with that too...which seems to be just about anything i say. I dont have to justify anything to you simply because YOU demand it. But once again...if you are so blind keep digging your hole deeper...your head is obviously so big you need a hole large enough to bury it.
I dont see any answers you have that are better than mine...or any of the other posters for that matter. You simply attack those with a differing viewpoint.

Your comment...
Yes underlying cause of the problems is religion, but the fact of the matter is that the environment that these problems thive in was created through political dealings and decisions.

My comment was...
I guess we will see in the next few years what really happens in the Middle East....whether its straight political or theist/political is a fine line in that area. I dont ignore the FACT that the vast majority of issues in the middle east have a theistic base to them. That includes almost everything done by Israel or its neighbors. To not see that is being blind.


Seems like you admit the problem yet deny its existence. Political leaders are religiously influenced in the middle east...THAT is the fact of that region, and that was the point I made.

BTW...
Hezbollah = Militant Islamic resistance movement; it does not recognize Israel's right to exist.
"Party of God" - Pro-Iranian Shi'ite party that is strong in Lebanon and has fought the Israeli army in Lebanon for many years.

Jewish state of Israel is the only state named after a religion.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

What's with this left ****? I haven't voted anything but conservative my whole life! Jesus, its called doing the CORRECT thing, not the RIGHT thing.



Don't discount Egypt. Their relationship with the west is NOT heavily supported by the people. If push comes to shove, the Arabs will support the Arabs. And don't discount the Iranians and the Iraqis. Israel could very easily polarize the region. If that happens, the whole place blows up and you're going to see all hell break loose. This is the strategy that the Islamists have been counting on when it comes to Israel. They WANT Israel to lashout and bring all the Arab nations together. If this happens, all bets are off IMO.

The Left comment was a half tongue in cheek. Your conspirazoid ravings against the neo-cons paint a somewhat flawed portrait of your political background. However, I am guessing your leanings more along the lines of Preston Manning and conservative democracy.

If the Iranians get involved, then yeah, Israel might be in trouble.
Israel's actions may not be "right", but even you have to admit that in International Relations, power rules. Israel has tried negotiating with the extremists and it gets them nowhere.

For a country which has been in survival mode (real or imagined), a heavy handed response is often the only response.

[Azure]

BEIRUT, Lebanon — Two rockets hit Haifa, Israeli's third biggest city, early Thursday evening, the deepest strike into Israel so far in what was called a "major, major escalation" in the ongoing battle between Lebanon and Israel by an Israeli official

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,203253,00.html

[Blaster86]

Well it's been about 20 years hasn't it? Time for another war against Israel. I wonder how much land Israel takes this time. That way in another 20 years the attacking Arabic countries can add that to their list of "stuff Israel took from them after they started a war that they want back"

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by peter12

The Left comment was a half tongue in cheek. Your conspirazoid ravings against the neo-cons paint a somewhat flawed portrait of your political background.

Please don't consider the neo-cons as conservatives. That is an insult to conservatives everywhere. Conservatives are on the LEFT of the neo-cons, so I guess you are right, I am a leftist by that comparison. Also, I can't help it if I beleieve that we, as a species, should be looking out for each other rather than trying to continually kill each other.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Please don't consider the neo-cons as conservatives. That is an insult to conservatives everywhere. Conservatives are on the LEFT of the neo-cons, so I guess you are right, I am a leftist by that comparison. Also, I can't help it if I beleieve that we, as a species, should be looking out for each other rather than trying to continually kill each other.

Well to be honest, I agree. The ultra-competitive mantra of the neo-cons gets frustrating at times. Don't get me wrong, our self interest and competition make the world go round, but I like to think as Rousseau did, that we all have strong secondary compassion for our fellow humans.

Neo-cons... hmm, they get a bad rap though. Same with social conservatives. It just happens their loudest followers happen to be the ones that least follow the social/neo line of thought.

When it boils down to it, real neo-cons are just talking about values and how the welfare state has degraded them. But yeah, this whole attitude of don't trust your neighbour, stab him in teh back is counter productive.
John Locke must roll around in his grave everytime a Bush budget comes out.

[Saint Troy]

I've been watching this story deteriorate for the last few days. I must say I find it interesting that Israel is now choosing to "defend themselves" more aggressively with a huge U.S presence in the persian gulf and increased US/Iran sabre rattling over uranium enrichment. I agree with Lanny in that this is exactly what the Islamic fundamentalists want, another crusade to defend.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by peter12

Why does the Left want the West to lose? Just to mock and say I told you so?

The only armed forces even close to being on a par with the Israelis in the Middle East is Egypt. And they are subsidized and supplied heavily by the USA. So is Egypt going to get involved? Every indication from the past 15 years says that Egypt is trying to swing more to the West.

So no, that leaves the Syrians, which are still driving T-55s and T-72s and flying Mig-21s. The Israelis will run over the Syrians.

So who does that leave in the Middle Easy, Lanny?

And if Eqypt ever acted with agression, Isreal could just blow up the Aswan dam and bye bye Eqypt. The Arab states have no chance against Isreal. Isreal has up to date modern technology sold and serviced by the same vendors that supply the American military. They are a nuclear power. They have intelligence forces and agents that rival the CIA except with less red tape. These are the guys that fought off all the other Arab states for years to survive this long. And you can always trust Isreal to act on their own for their own interests. Hell, they flew secretly from Isreal through Jordan and Saudi Arabia into the heart of Iraq to destroy the french built and delivered Osirak nuclear reactor and got out before anyone even knew they were there. What did Reagan say about that? He laughed, smiled, and said "boys will be boys".