Monument to Vietnam deserters draws fire

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard@Sep 25 2004, 04:10 PM
Wait a second, their nation called upon them, they responded by doing what was asked of them and they don't get as much respect for the people that RAN AWAY because they were scared for their own lives? Do you think these people were making a political stand, or that they were just afraid of dying?

I participated in a few 60's antiwar peacemarches and most of the people I met were making a definite political statement. You can't argue with marches of 500,000 people. Most draft dodgers were acting out their political beliefs also. They gave up their right to ever return to the USA, so yes they did do some sacrifice for ltheir beliefs. I think it was Carter who allowed them back.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by Mike F@Sep 25 2004, 11:08 PM
My respect hierarchy is:

1. Those who risked their lives because they believed in the cause
2. Those who avoided the war because they didn't believe it was just
3. Those who believed it was unjust but picked up a rifle and killed anyway

I suppose I have a modicum more respect for those who faced trial, but it's not the dividing line between cowardly and not. At the time, those who were drafted didn't have to look far to see someone of wealth and privilege exempted from having to face the dilemma, so it's hard for me to fault those underprivileged who felt it was nearly as unjust to face prison as it was to face war.

There were people that went over there and served in the navy as corpsmen, or as field medics or doctors or in other non combat positions.

Those people earned my respect.

The guys that went over there and fought and killed to defend the guy next to him earned my respect.

the guy who did a windsprint over the border lit up a joint, they did nothing to be proud of.

Like I said there's already a memorial for brave people that went to Vietnam whether they agreed with the war or not.

We don't need one especially in Canada especially using the word brave or corageous.

[Weiser Wonder]

Why should those people that didn't want to go to war have to face prison time? Just because they have different views they are thrown in prison. Seems stupid to me to get yourself thrown in prison instead of just moving to Canada.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by Weiser Wonder@Sep 25 2004, 11:54 PM
Why should those people that didn't want to go to war have to face prison time? Just because they have different views they are thrown in prison. Seems stupid to me to get yourself thrown in prison instead of just moving to Canada.

At the time it was considered desertion which was a crime. now you can claim objector status.

what they did was in the books at the time as a crime. but to me it would take more of a man to report to your draft board and state that your objecting as opposed to taking the cowardly way out.

thats just me tho.

Fleeing isn't a protest. Running over the border to another country isn't a protest. Standing up in front of the people that drafted you and saying no way, I'm not going and taking the consequences is brave.

Ali was brave because of what he did and it was an effective protest. He didn't fight out of Canada smoke dope and look at the guy next to him and say "Man the war is like wrong, can I borrow your pipe."

Draft Dodgers faced up to nothing

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Sep 25 2004, 04:07 PM
If I'm not mistaken, Cassius Clay, aka Muhammed Ali, went to the draft board and said "I'm not going" and served some prison time.

He didn't jump the border.

I think someone offered earlier the most appropriate viewpoint. Erecting a monument to people who deserted is probably not needed since they literally did nothing that would give us pause to remember them in any kind of light. They certainly weren't heroes.

Let them fade into the darkness of history.

Cowperson

Ali, despite being a highschool grad failed the army intelligence test twice before the draft board lowered their standards. When push came to shove he said "I have nothing against the Viet Cong" and refused to step forward. He was stripped of his title and became probably the most hated man in the USA among main stream media and the so-called "silent majority". I remember his lawyers kept him out of jail, but really "if you remember the 60's, you weren't there" and I was definitely there.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Vulcan+Sep 26 2004, 12:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Vulcan @ Sep 26 2004, 12:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowperson@Sep 25 2004, 04:07 PM
If I'm not mistaken, Cassius Clay, aka Muhammed Ali, went to the draft board and said "I'm not going" and served some prison time.

He didn't jump the border.

I think someone offered earlier the most appropriate viewpoint. Erecting a monument to people who deserted is probably not needed since they literally did nothing that would give us pause to remember them in any kind of light. They certainly weren't heroes.

Let them fade into the darkness of history.

Cowperson

Ali, despite being a highschool grad failed the army intelligence test twice before the draft board lowered their standards. When push came to shove he said "I have nothing against the Viet Cong" and refused to step forward. He was stripped of his title and became probably the most hated man in the USA among main stream media and the so-called "silent majority". I remember his lawyers kept him out of jail, but really "if you remember the 60's, you weren't there" and I was definitely there. [/b][/quote]

This exerpt:

Finally, a soldier told Ali he would have to draft a statement explaining why he declined to serve in his nation's Army. Ali wrote quickly: "I refuse to be inducted into the armed forces of the United States because I claim to be exempt as a minister of the religion of Islam."

And he did serve some time in prison.

When Ali refused to serve, he was stripped of his title, sentenced to prison, and fined $10,000. Freed on appeal, he was inactive for over three years while his case dragged on. The state of New York eventually granted him a license in 1970, and the Supreme Court ruled in his favor in 1971.

A good history here.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/doubleissue/heroes/ali.htm

Cowperson

[FlamesAddiction]

I think it's great to have a monument for these guys who had the courage to be an individual and refuse to do something wrong just because their president wanted them to. They're the real heros.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Cowperson+Sep 25 2004, 05:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cowperson @ Sep 25 2004, 05:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Ali, despite being a highschool grad failed the army intelligence test twice before the draft board lowered their standards. When push came to shove he said "I have nothing against the Viet Cong" and refused to step forward. He was stripped of his title and became probably the most hated man in the USA among main stream media and the so-called "silent majority". I remember his lawyers kept him out of jail, but really "if you remember the 60's, you weren't there" and I was definitely there.

This exerpt:

Finally, a soldier told Ali he would have to draft a statement explaining why he declined to serve in his nation's Army. Ali wrote quickly: "I refuse to be inducted into the armed forces of the United States because I claim to be exempt as a minister of the religion of Islam."

And he did serve some time in prison.

When Ali refused to serve, he was stripped of his title, sentenced to prison, and fined $10,000. Freed on appeal, he was inactive for over three years while his case dragged on. The state of New York eventually granted him a license in 1970, and the Supreme Court ruled in his favor in 1971.

A good history here.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/doubleissue/heroes/ali.htm

Cowperson [/b][/quote]
Ali like many others, claimed consciencious[sp] objector status as his official reason for declining service and it rarely worked. He also made the statement about the Viet Cong. I guess he did serve some time, as I said my memory of the 60's isn't perfect. I was, before his draft, during his troubles and after, always a big fan of Ali. The only thing, at the time, was coming to grips with his conversion to the Muslims and his change of name.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction@Sep 26 2004, 01:28 AM
I think it's great to have a monument for these guys who had the courage to be an individual and refuse to do something wrong just because their president wanted them to. They're the real heros.

Yeah what a great idea. Hey do you think the Congressional medal of honour is enough for them?

Maybe we can put a big yellow stripe down the middle of it and have a citation attached reading

For gallent bravery in the face of danger these honored few chose to run to Canada instead of standing up for what they believed in and facing the consequences of those beliefs.

I can just see it now.

Sob if you'll excuse me, I must go get some tissues for my tears.

[???]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction@Sep 25 2004, 06:28 PM
I think it's great to have a monument for these guys who had the courage to be an individual and refuse to do something wrong just because their president wanted them to. They're the real heros.

if this is your idea of standing up whats your idea of running away?

this monument is a disgrace to our country.


real heros are like that NFL player who gave up his nice pro job, vaulunteered to goto afghanistan and was killed. name eludes me but thats a hero, these guys are pussies.

[JiriHrdina]

??? - Pat Tillman is the guy you are thinking of.

[browna]

If the town are that hard up, they should erect a statue of Billy Jack Haynes, WWF master of the "Full Nelson".

Nothing to be proud of...both the deserters back then, or the town itself now.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by ???@Sep 26 2004, 02:07 AM
if this is your idea of standing up whats your idea of running away?

this monument is a disgrace to our country.


real heros are like that NFL player who gave up his nice pro job, vaulunteered to goto afghanistan and was killed. name eludes me but thats a hero, these guys are pussies.

Would you respect them more if they caved and went off to fight a war that they did not agree with? I personally have trouble respecting sheep. They risked their livelihood, seeing their families, and disgracing themselves by choosing to stand by their ideals. That means more to me than someone who lacked the will to be an individual and went off to Vietnam because they to afraid to say no. They refused to give up their freedom.

This IS NOT to be confused with people (like Tillman) who put themselves in danger because they personally felt it was the right thing. I respect them for the same reason I respect the people who dodged - both did what they felt was right in their heart.

I can't believe that in this day in age, people would still defend the draft system of the 1960s and 70s, which was in itself an attack on liberty, freedom, and equality.

You also have to keep in mind those dodgers that settled in the interior of BC have contributed a lot to the history and economy of the area. They deserve respect.

[???]

im not defending the draft, but this is just plain runing away, to save your own ass and let someone else fill in for you. thats why it gets me cracky to call them heros. they left,someone else had to fill their spot. i would say fine, the dodgers that stayed around, went to jail and tried to end the draft might come to earn some respect. but not ones who fled for themselves by themselves.


k this ones over for me, time to go out for the night

damn forgot to use a qoute.

[???]

he·ro ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hîr)
n. pl. he·roes

2. A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.
3. A person noted for special achievement in a particular field:



see say so right there

[FlamesAddiction]

Especially one who risked their life, but not limited to one.

How would you feel about an Iraqi person who refused to take part in the invasion of Kuwait, and instead someone else was sent? How about a French person who refused to go to Vietnam, or a Russian person who refused to go to Afghanistan? Should we respect them for their decisions?

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally posted by ???+Sep 25 2004, 07:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (??? @ Sep 25 2004, 07:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-FlamesAddiction@Sep 25 2004, 06:28 PM
I think it's great to have a monument for these guys who had the courage to be an individual and refuse to do something wrong just because their president wanted them to.# They're the real heros.

if this is your idea of standing up whats your idea of running away?

this monument is a disgrace to our country.


real heros are like that NFL player who gave up his nice pro job, vaulunteered to goto afghanistan and was killed. name eludes me but thats a hero, these guys are pussies. [/b][/quote]
YAY! Blanket statements! Give me a break. They are people that didn't want to be shot at for no reason or go to jail so they dodged the draft. Seems like the practical thing to do.

EDIT: Spelling

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by Weiser Wonder+Sep 26 2004, 04:18 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Weiser Wonder @ Sep 26 2004, 04:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

if this is your idea of standing up whats your idea of running away?

this monument is a disgrace to our country.


real heros are like that NFL player who gave up his nice pro job, vaulunteered to goto afghanistan and was killed. name eludes me but thats a hero, these guys are pussies.

YAY! Blanket statements! Give me a break. They are people that didn't want to be shot at for no reason or go to jail so they dodged the draft. Seems like the practical thing to do.

EDIT: Spelling [/b][/quote]
Terrific, but don't call them hero's don't salute them and certainly don't build a monument to them.

The best thing that can happen to these people is that history forgets them.


Oh and on a personal note, they're cowards

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by ???@Sep 25 2004, 07:58 PM
im not defending the draft, but this is just plain runing away, to save your own ass and let someone else fill in for you. thats why it gets me cracky to call them heros. they left,someone else had to fill their spot. i would say fine, the dodgers that stayed around, went to jail and tried to end the draft might come to earn some respect. but not ones who fled for themselves by themselves.


k this ones over for me, time to go out for the night

damn forgot to use a qoute.

"they left,someone else had to fill their spot." Not if "someone else" also refused. The idea in the 60's was if each man refused to serve in Viet Nam, eventually there would be no new recruits. Most young people probably didn't consider if one method was more moral than another. If you could fool the draft board, great. If you could buy your way out, great. If you went underground, great. If you became a professional student, great. If you moved to Canada or Sweden, great. If you married and had children, great. If you could find that special job that lowered your draft induction possibilities, great. Going to jail was usually a last option. I think this idea was one effective way in shortening the war.

[HOZ]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction@Sep 26 2004, 02:46 AM

They risked their livelihood, seeing their families, and disgracing themselves by choosing to stand by their ideals.

You seem to miss this point. They didn't stand at all. They ran. Instead of protesting the war and serving time in jail they made a run for the boarder.


That means more to me than someone who lacked the will to be an individual and went off to Vietnam because they to afraid to say no. They refused to give up their freedom.

Sure they gave up their freedom. They couldn't get back into the US and they couldn't leave Canada because they didn't ave a passport. They were stuck. WOW!What individuals they were/are.

I can't believe that in this day in age, people would still defend the draft system of the 1960s and 70s, which was in itself an attack on liberty, freedom, and equality.

Nobody has defended it. It amazes me that you cannot comprehend simple English.

You also have to keep in mind those dodgers that settled in the interior of BC have contributed a lot to the history and economy of the area. They deserve respect.

Always wondered where BC got their weenie/socialist background from. Now we know. Some time in the 60's BC lost their frontier spirit....now we know what happened. Hige influx of cowardess