Are animals self-aware?

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Isn't self awareness a bit more complicated than just finding treats or getting mad athe owner? I've always thought that self awareness is a complete awareness of your existance. I contemplate my existance, to me that's what self awareness is. I am concious that I exists and that I can ponder my existance.

Maybe we're all having different thoughts on what self awareness is.

[Calgary Flames]

My cat we had to put down was amazingly smart. Human like, talked (Well when you talked to him he meowed everytime in acknowledgement), did tricks by understanding words and reacting to them, had a routine.

God I loved that Cat.

[Bobblehead]

So are the scientists, at least that is the impression the article gives. Animals fail the self-awareness tests in the lab but display it in the wild, "semi-self-awareness". When it comes from beings that we can't directly communicate with, or have a philosophical discussion, I'm not surprised that the determination of self awareness is proving difficult.
And while while learned responses do not equate to self-aware, I would contend that the ability to learn would be a strong indicator of the ability to be (or become) self aware.

[Kybosh]

I'm with BBS on this one. I think some people are getting confused between self-awareness and being aware of ones surroundings. There are connecting elements between the two but this is clearly a tricky question.

My dog knows obedience and several tricks. She knows what she needs to do to get fed and get attention. These things do not mean that she knows who she is, where she came from or where she's going. Does she live in the now or is she aware of her past and how it shaped her as a dog? I obviously have no idea if she's self-aware or not. She is definately aware of her surroundings but these are two different things in my opinion.

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

See, I don't think that is self awareness.
I'm not saying that your horse doesn't posess some level of it, but I don't think that's an example of it.
Learning does not necessarily equate to self awareness, they are different concepts.

If simply being able to learn was an indication of self awareness then there would be no debate, as it is very clear that just about any animal can be trained, and many can figure out complex tasks on their own.
What the article is talking about is something completely different.

I'm not saying that many animals do not show some leven (in some cases a very high level) of self awareness, quite the opposite infact, I think it's clear that they do. But My dog can do tricks, and my horse can get his own treats are not examples of this.

So then what is the difference here?

1. A horse who waits for treats because he knows his owner will give him some.

2. A horse who knows where the treats are and grabs the box and tries to shake them out.

3. A horse who knows where the treats are, undoes the handles, takes off the lid, and gets his own.

Three different behaviours show very different reactions to the fact there are cookies in a box with handles. Horse #3 has to figure out to undo the handles with his mouth. The fact he doesn't want to wait like horse #1 means something to me.

In any case, the emotion most animals show and can learn from owners makes me think there is much more self-awareness than people believe. Animals don't get the respect from humans they should.

[FFR]

Self-AWareness adn Intelligence are two completely different things. lot's of animals are aware of their surroundings and who their owners are but I dont' believe all of them know who they are. I dont' think a dog sits and thinks "I'm a dog."

Even humans don't have self-awareness before the age of around 3. If you put a child infront of a mirror with a blue dot on their nose before they have attained self-awareness they may attempt to interact with the "child" in the mirror but they dont realize that it is themselves. Once a child has attained self awareness, they will try and see what the blue dot on their nose is and will use the mirror to determine what it is.

I think most animals remain in the state of non self-awareness. My cats will not look in the mirror. If you bring them to the mirror they will not look at it and I think it is because they think it's another animal and don't want to deal with it. I don't think that most animals have the processing power to understand the concept of "self." Self awareness is definately something that sets us apart from other animals. I would be interested to see whether they determine if gorillas or other great apes have self awareness.

[CaramonLS]

Well, maybe the way Cow asked the question it sounded like it was more geared toward "does your pet have emotions".

[Jiggy_12]

The mirror test is interesting.

I've held my dog up to the mirror before. She doesn't react at all...she knows it isn't another dog, she just doesn't seem to care. She clearly knows I am holding her up, and she can see my reflection in the mirror as well.

But she shows no reaction. She is smart enough to know that what she is seeing isn't actually there...but I don't know if she realizes that the little while ball of fur in my arms is actually her.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

I don't know oldsam,

Really they are all the same thing. Just because a horse can figure out more complex tasks doesn't mean it has a concept of self.

As several people have said (including myself) intellignece does not necessarily equate to self awareness.
Again, I'm not saying that your horse is completely devoid of this concpet, but I just don't think being able to get their own treats is a good indication of this.

It's sort of the same arguement as emotion and intellignece.
Many animals will pout, or get angry (at least appear to), but does this mean they are intelligent?

Human babies are full of emtoion, but do not develope a concept of self, or intelligence untill later on. So it's not that difficult to beleive that animals can have differeing levels of all three of these.

[CaramonLS]

Well this is what my cat does with the mirror, usually she doesn't care one way or another, she can lie in front of the mirror and it doesn't phase her.

However, if for example I have a toy, I can stand behind her (while she is facing the mirror and looking at it), waive the toy around as if I want to play with her and she will turn around and start playing with the toy (she does not attack the mirror).

I beleive she is aware that the mirror is only a reflection, but I'm not entirely sure what that proves.

[ken0042]

I have to agree that showing signs of intelligence does not make the animal self aware.

When I was young I used to have gerbils. Not the smartest animals in the world but they did figure out different ways of escaping by manipulating the lid to escape; once they even figured out that by hanging upside down they could shake the lid enough to make it fall over.

There was even one time one of them showed the ability to reason. I had taught them to ring a bell hanging in the cage if they needed food. Once during the middle of the day I heard the bell ringing and was about to give them heck because it wasn't feeding time. To my horror I found one of them had broken his leg and was caught in the running wheel, and the other went and rang the bell to call me to help.

(for the animal lovers out there this does have a happy ending. The vet taught us to make splints for him and he did recover.)

Both of these are showing determination and a bit of intelligence, but neither is an example of being self aware.

[spydermal]

I just asked my dog, she’s going to check with the neighbor’s cat.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

Are animals self aware? Do they have personalities? Come see my Jack Russel. Sometimes I wish he was a little dumber, because it seems like I live with a 3 year old child.

All animals have characteristics which we would construe as "personality traits", even those who are of significantly limited intelligence. My Borzoi—a dog breed which is not regarded as having any significant intelligence—was distinct in his BEHAVIOUR—a key word in this discussion—regarding certain stimulae and circumstances. He never barked, licked, seldom wagged his tail or "grinned" (somthing my Australian Shepherd does; it is quite hilarious), but would "click" his teeth together as a way of showing appreciation or affection, for lack of a better word.

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

- he eats garbage then runs and hides when I get home 3 hours later

Because like the vast majority of domesticated dogs, he has learned that this behaviour results in a series of negative responses and consequences. This does not mean he knows the difference between "right" and "wrong", he is merely exhibitting a patterned response to a stimulus.

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

- If he's mad at you for not paying attention he'll sneak off and pee on your shoes

At which point I am willing to bet that he receives ample attention. This is hardly a "malicious" response, it is only the employment of a proven effective method for securing your attention. Because dogs are pack animals, and beacuse you have established yourself as both pack leader and nurturer, your dog will always look for you attention (some much more than others, however; again, a very big difference between my [aloof] Borzoi and [neurotic] Australian Shepherd is noteworthy in this regard).

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

- he knows about 9 different commands, but only when it's convenient

It's not a matter of convenience as much as it is a matter of your dog's breeding and intelligence in conjunction with how effective your training and handling has been. Consistency is the absolute most important key to eliciting desired responses and expected behaviour from our dogs. Usually the more intelligent the animal, the more consistent our actions and instructions must be. My Australian Shepherd (a HIGHLY intelligent do much like your JRT) "learns" instructions very quickly and easily, but because she is so well conditioned to respond to patterned behaviour, she also learns undesirable reactions just as easily. The triggers for these are often very difficult to detect, and take MUCH observation before they can be un-done.

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

- I'm beginning to think he's racist, or he's just an a-hole

JTR's are ALL a**holes. My wife—a professional dog trainer—hates working with them because they exhibit certain behaviours and responses which are difficult to work through. JTR's are instinctively an aggressive breed, which results in their appearing especially, mean, selfish, manipulative, devious, etc. Racism, by the way is a social response to a variety of ideological and cultural circumstances; I find it impossible to believe that even a highly intelligent dog like your JTR would be capable of forming any sort of opinions, which are necessary for an attitude of racism.

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

- He thinks that he's about 100lbs heavier than any other dog in the park, and will take away sticks, balls, whatever from any dog around him, not matter how mad they are about it.

Again, JTR aggression and pack instincts in combination with the animals level of socialization. Socialization among pet dogs is particularly important if they are ever to "learn" appropriate behaviour in a pack setting with other animals. I have had MUCH experience with this. My wife and I have had dozens of animals living in our house, and through much pain and aggravation have learned that dogs raised by humans need to be introduced very early on and with significant frequency to MANY other dogs (and cats et. al, depending on its Sitz im Leiben), if they are ever to learn how to integrate with other dogs. This is something that a mother will teach her offspring in the wild, but because most puppies are removed and homed practically immediately after they are weaned, the responsibility rests with the dog's owners.

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

Such a wierd, wierd animal.

Not really. Based on your description, it seems to me like he is merely a typical JTR who has picked up some bad habits, and has not been properly socialized. With some professional training, he would probably "learn" to behave more in line with your expectations for him.

[Delthefunky]

After everyone leaves for work in our house our dog walks into the pantry and drags a bag of potatoes, loaf of bread or something next to it's bed... just lies next to them! kinda wierd

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I have to agree that showing signs of intelligence does not make the animal self aware.

When I was young I used to have gerbils. Not the smartest animals in the world but they did figure out different ways of escaping by manipulating the lid to escape; once they even figured out that by hanging upside down they could shake the lid enough to make it fall over.

There was even one time one of them showed the ability to reason. I had taught them to ring a bell hanging in the cage if they needed food. Once during the middle of the day I heard the bell ringing and was about to give them heck because it wasn't feeding time. To my horror I found one of them had broken his leg and was caught in the running wheel, and the other went and rang the bell to call me to help.

(for the animal lovers out there this does have a happy ending. The vet taught us to make splints for him and he did recover.)

Both of these are showing determination and a bit of intelligence, but neither is an example of being self aware.

And this raises the age-old question: just how does one effectively give a gerbil heck?

Anyhow, as for "self-awareness", what about bears (or a lot of other animals, but I'll use bears) and the whole "it's not a good idea to get between a mother bear and her cub" thing? I don't know where you draw the line between plain old instinct and "self awareness" but it seems to me that the mama bear and the bear cubs all are aware that they are part of a family and wouldn't that signify "self-awareness"? The mama obviously has an emotional attachment to the cubs, and the cubs obviously know where they fit in the world.

And this one is probably all "instinct" but you could look at a bear fattening himself up for the winter snooze and come to the conclusion that he's planning for the future. Maybe. Planning for (and even realizing you have one) the future would = self-awareness.

Neato topic. I can't really understand why it's debatable that animals have emotions though. It seems pretty clear to me.

[Textcritic]

I don't believe the mirror experiment described in the article can explain anything about an animal's self-awareness. To necessarily do so, I believe one must prove that a given animal has developed a concept of time, and can recognize the past from the present and the future. My cat and my dogs "recognize" their reflection in the mirror for what it is, but in no way would I suggest that they are even remotely "self-aware". When they were puppies, my dogs would frequently be startled by their own reflection, and attempt to interact with it, and my cats would do the same. With time, they all learned to simply ignore the mirror, not because they did not wish to interact with the reflection, but simply because they instinctivley recognize that the image in the mirror is not an animal. If my Australian Shepherd ever thought her reflection was another dog, it stands to reason that she would react in the same manner that she does whenever she encounters another dog (a fairly predictable, and not a very desirable response). My pets all have the ability to develop responses to patterns and stimulae; it is called "instinctively learned behaviour" (Pavlov's dog, anyone?). But nothing about this behaviour suggests to me that my dogs and cat have developed any sort of concept of time. They do not plan for the future; they do not anticipate consequences; they do not "remember" past experiences or events (at least not in the ame sense that we do). They respond or reacte. They seek apporval only because they have come to sense that it is beneficial. They form relationships with us akin to those among pack animals in the wild, through which they have come to depend on for their perceived survival. If animals experience any sort of emotion, it is at best limited and simple. They may be described as happy, sad, or angry; there is no "disappointed" or "jaded" or "hate". When dog's play, it is for the purpose of functioning within the pack. When they fight, it is for the purpose of establishing a place within the pack. I love my dogs, and because I must imprint upon them athropomorphic and anthropopathic designations to comprehend their actions and behaviours, I like to believe that they "love" me to. In reality this is, however, simply not the case.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Neato topic. I can't really understand why it's debatable that animals have emotions though. It seems pretty clear to me.

And on that I will agree 100%. It's just that displaying emotion is not the same as being self aware.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

I'm not sure the momma bear and her cub is the best example.
If you get between a hungry bear and some delicious berries they probalby won't be too happy with you either.
I think being between a bear and something it wants, such as food or a cub, could be interpreted as a sign of aggression and the bear reacts as it would to any other sort of aggression, by kicking the crap out of it.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

They do not plan for the future; they do not anticipate consequences; they do not "remember" past experiences or events (at least not in the ame sense that we do). They respond or reacte.

Ah yes Classical conditioning theory, but Text, you also bring up the more philisophical point of are human beings just comprised to various operant and classical conditioning responses?

Obviously Text, we'll never be able to see inside an animal's head any time soon and know whether or not they think about the future (is their any particular way to know that even for a fact?). I mean a squirrel gathers reserves of nuts, a bear eats a lot of food in order to prepare for the long hibernation period, I guess in some ways that is future oriented.

[Displaced Flames fan]

No doubt in my mind that they are.