Canada severs relations with 'terrorist' Palestinian government - Page 2 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Cheese · 03-30-2006, 12:42 PM

Isnt there a parrallel in Ireland with the IRA having formed a political wing?
Its always about the flavor of the day and who serves me best at this very minute when it comes to political process.
Im sure that the fact that Canada has dropped support to Hamas means almost squat to them as we are a small fish in the political sea.

transplant99 · 03-30-2006, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

^^^^ Okay Tranny, lets try this one out.

bin Laden returns home to Saudi Arabia and manages to get the country to boot the royals, turning it into a "democratic" country. He, and his Al Qaeda party, gets elected and he is now the new ruler of the country. Does the United States recognize the government?

Remember that Saudi Arabia is something that Palestine is not, a country with something that America greatly covets. Whaddaya think?

I think there would be a revolt inside Saudi that would never allow that to happen.

And how booting rulers and assuming power is declared as democratic is beyond me.

Regardless....do you agree that the situation that is actually existing and not some theoretical one, is a rock and hard place one?

transplant99 · 03-30-2006, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Isnt there a parrallel in Ireland with the IRA having formed a political wing?

Sinn Fein you mean?

Yes, and it only worked AFTER they agreed to stop the bombings. but it worked, much to their credit.

transplant99 · 03-30-2006, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheese

Im sure that the fact that Canada has dropped support to Hamas means almost squat to them as we are a small fish in the political sea.

The newly installed Palestinian Information Minister, Youssef Rizka, called the Canadian action "hasty" and said it "shows obvious bias."

Palestinian Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar told Associated Press television he wasn't surprised by the decision.

"The question is if the Canadian state is willing to starve the Palestinian people while the Israelis are committing big crimes against the Palestinian industry, the Palestinian society," Zahar said

octothorp · 03-30-2006, 12:59 PM

No question, this move was done for the benefit of the US rather than sending any sort of message to Hamas. We're a fairly insignificant country in terms of middle-east influence. We probably have the least influence of all G8 nations. That said, it's important not to give governments a free pass because they were democratically elected. After all, the Nazi party was democratically elected in Germany, and got far too much of a free pass.* Any positive influence on Hamas will come not from nations like Canada or the US, but from other middle-eastern governments. Unfortunately, the current climate in the middle east does not bode well: governments in Saudi Arabia, Syria, and other countries will pay lip-service to the US, while simultaneously bolstering Hamas against the US and Israel. I think Hamas has to be given a clean slate, but kept on an extremely short leash; Israel's current initiative of withdrawing settlements is comendable, and the response of Hamas will be crucial in determining whether they're going to govern responsibly, or merely use their power to get shots in at Israel.

*Not making a direct comparison between Hamas and the Nazi party, just demonstrating that democracy is not necessarily a check against the rise of evil.

Bleeding Red · 03-30-2006, 01:07 PM

A few things to remember:

Most pundits agree that Hamas' victory was more a shot at an extremely corupt Fatah government than at Israel.

Hamas has stated that they will not alter their charter or stance of not recognizing Israel's right to exist nor will they renounce violence to achive their end of liberating all of 'occupied Palestine' - which for them includes Haifa and Tel Aviv.

Out of the other side of thier mouths, they have said they are willing to negotiate a long term truce - as opposed to Israel's current unilateral withdrawl, but not peace.

As Hamas is on Canada's terrorist list, it may have been illeagal to send them any funds directly.

Canada is withholding $7.3 mil of it's committed $25 mil. This money was targeted mainly to professional development of Palestinain Judges. The bulk pf the money has and will continue to go to Palestinians through UN NGOs. No one will starve.

The Centerist Kadima Party is forming a coalition to govern Israel as we type. They believe they have won the mandate to continue with "Convergance", commonaly know as unilateral disengagement. They will be dismantling settlements in Judia and Sumeria and creating a final (though not unmovable) boarder. Though Olmert did say last night that negotiations were preferable.

Can Hamas become a centerist government? Not if it will not renounce violence. After Israel left Gaza, it was Hamas gangs that draged Arafat's cousin into the street and executed him. Can they create the democratic institutions to go along with democratic elections? As an Islamist party I would expect Shaira Law to become the base of the Palestinain legal system now. Can Canada tutor Judges in a legal system that Canada has outlawed? Hamas has not shown that they can govern in the area where they are strongest - Gaza - where killings, kidnappings of forgeiners and offensive rocket launches still happen.

Renounce violence and end suicide bombings, then talks can begin.

Lanny_MacDonald · 03-30-2006, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by transplant99

I think there would be a revolt inside Saudi that would never allow that to happen.

And how booting rulers and assuming power is declared as democratic is beyond me.

Regardless....do you agree that the situation that is actually existing and not some theoretical one, is a rock and hard place one?

It's not as crazy as you would think. The Saudi Royals are definitely aware of the possibility and do what they can to make sure it doesn't happen. Never discount the potential of the perceived pious man in theocratric society. The Wahabis are very powerful in Saudi and would welcome bin Laden into the fold.

As to how it would happen, look no further than Iran for the action plan. Iran was a monarchy, just like Saudi. It fell over night and was taken over by a group that later had elections so as to be considered a democracy. Its not far fetched and has happened within recent memory.

With the existing scenario, I think its been politicized by Bush and Harper. The US will allow the borders to open on certain products (the US is dying for some quality softwood anyways) as long as Harper plays ball in certain diplomatic areas. I think this is one of them. Plus, not acknowledging Hamas will sell big in the west end of Montreal, Toronto and Calgary! Smart politicking on Harper's part.

White Doors · 03-30-2006, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by transplant99

I dont disagree with this at all.

Unfortunately, the platform for Hamas , and the reason they were created afterall, was to promote the annihalation of the Jewish state and in turn the whole Jewish entity.

IF, and its a huge if, the Hamas leadership change that stance and show a willing ness to NEGOTIATE change rather than force it, then by all means (and Canada will lead the way here as well) all Western countries would be able to re-open things.

Unfortunately for everyone involved, I just dont see that tiger changing its stripes anytime soon.

Exactly. We aid the PA when their leaders renounce violence, recognize Israel and agree to past agreements on the roadmap to peace. They voted them in, that;'s fine - but if they aren;t going to be responsible, then i do not see any financial obligation on Canada in aiding them (being the government).
Good move Harper - finally a forign policy with balls.

White Doors · 03-30-2006, 04:55 PM

"What do we have to offer to Palestinians?" We have been supporting the givernment FINANCIALLY for decades. If they aren't going to renounce terrorism, how do you feel your tax dollars going towards that?

CaptainCrunch · 03-30-2006, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

^^^^ Okay Tranny, lets try this one out.

bin Laden returns home to Saudi Arabia and manages to get the country to boot the royals, turning it into a "democratic" country. He, and his Al Qaeda party, gets elected and he is now the new ruler of the country. Does the United States recognize the government?

Remember that Saudi Arabia is something that Palestine is not, a country with something that America greatly covets. Whaddaya think?

I want to play

Lets say Bin Laden returns manages to legitimately get the royals booted out, and its replaced with a Islamic based government, there's not a problem. However lets say that the government then starts sending "Volunteers" to Israel who happily blow themselves up along with innocent woman and children, while the government releases statements that they will not be satisfied with anything but the removal of the evil Jewish state in Palestine. Yeah I think that any government contact and aid would be cut off until that government moderates itself. It has nothing to do with relations with the U.S., or sucking up about softwood, its the right thing to do. Hamas has been and is a terrorist organization first and foremost, its thier mandate to destroy the state of Isreal, its thier mandate to use violence. Were they democratically elected, sure, but that dosen't mean that thier actions and statements are right or should be supported because of that on the international stage. Someone used an interesting analogy of Nazi Germany and the election of the National Socialist party, but this is quite different, because while Hitler compaigned on a lot of things, he didn't mention the extermination of the Jewish people as an election platform. He blamed them for a lot of things, but he didn't run on a platform of crematoriums. Hamas has been upfront about what they are, and we as a country that has ideals based in fairness, and the acceptance of any race, we can't support this government with money.

Its funny how people blame Israel for the situation there, however one of the root causes has to be the fact that these terrorist groups have continually targeted civilians, and Israel is responding in the only way possible and thats with violence, the only language that terrorists understand. This election will be the worst thing that happens to Palestine in a lot of years.

HOZ · 03-30-2006, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by transplant99

Interesting that Canada is the first after Israel to just say no to Hamas.

Good call I believe.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/30032006/...overnment.html

It is a good call. Nice to see Canada actually take the lead rather than being the follower.

Hamas is a fascist entity. Have to respect that they were elected democratically but we don't have to do business with these monsters.

FlamesAddiction · 03-31-2006, 12:10 AM

I don't know what to think about this.

On one hand, Hamas is not a party we should support with unconditional aid. But on the other hand, severing relations pretty much severs any hope we could have of influencing them. Aid is the best way to influence the politics of nations. Hence, we always see powerful countries give "aid" to poorer countries - even ones with questionable regimes. Saddam was once on that list actually.

Really, Canada severing relations with the Palestinians is like Morrisey not playing in Canada. It's could easily be counter productive.

Although, I must say... I like that Harper can take a stand on the issue one way or another. I just hope it ends up being for the best, and not just for image.

Vulcan · 03-31-2006, 01:41 AM

Well, maybe this will put us in the crosshairs of every extremist nutbar out there, but
hopefully not.

I have a hard time finding sympathy for the Jews or the Moslems in this dispute. Both sides are bloodthirsty louts.

CaptainCrunch · 03-31-2006, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I don't know what to think about this.

On one hand, Hamas is not a party we should support with unconditional aid. But on the other hand, severing relations pretty much severs any hope we could have of influencing them. Aid is the best way to influence the politics of nations. Hence, we always see powerful countries give "aid" to poorer countries - even ones with questionable regimes. Saddam was once on that list actually.

Really, Canada severing relations with the Palestinians is like Morrisey not playing in Canada. It's could easily be counter productive.

Although, I must say... I like that Harper can take a stand on the issue one way or another. I just hope it ends up being for the best, and not just for image.

In listening to what Hamas has to say, I very much doubt that any kind of pressure is really going to change thier mind. In the case of recognizing the state of Israel and seeking a peaceful solution, thier stand is not political, its steeped in mis-interpreted scriptures combined with generations of rage.

I think you could cut off thier funding and starve thier people to death, and all they would do is use it to fuel thier movement. Thats what makes them so frightening, Hamas is detached from reality and should not be governing.