Iraq at civil war!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mbrown]

Japan was not a democracy before the US made it one..

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by mbrown

Japan was not a democracy before the US made it one..

Well, the allies demanded demoracy fom JApan as part of the end of WW2 (Potsdam Declaration). But Iraq is a very different situation from Japan, and to imply that the US can do the same thing in Iraq as how democratic reforms happened in Japan is ridiculous. They are 2 very different cultures with very different histories.

[mbrown]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Well, the allies demanded demoracy fom JApan as part of the end of WW2 (Potsdam Declaration). But Iraq is a very different situation from Japan, and to imply that the US can do the same thing in Iraq as how democratic reforms happened in Japan is ridiculous. They are 2 very different cultures with very different histories.

Yes, Japan was even more isolated and 'backwards' then, compared to Iraq now...

The US was an occupying power in Japan and still is to some extent.

Patience people, have faith - It will happen in Iraq too.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by HOZ

For the Cheat'n, lying and deisel group

http://www.iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/

Still hanging in there1

Good thing people didn't give up on the brainwashed Americans after year 1-3 either!

WTF do you know about America or what goes on here? Let me guess, someone sends you "game tapes"!

That blog is a joke. I stopped taking it seriously the minute the dufus suggested that Iraq was sliding backwards under Hussein and was now "free". Yeah, under Hussein Iraq was the most progressive of the Arab countries. Women had rights and were considered useful in society. Now that the strongman is gone, and non-secular agendas are being pursued, Iraq is getting ready to step back to the 8th century for societal norms. Wow, how progressive! Women gotta love the idea of living in the bee-keeper suits again! And won't it be great that the only book for sale will be the Quran? What a dolt!

There is a reason why so many people in America are demanding an immediate withdrawl and to let Iraq go its own way. There is a reason why some are suggesting the reinstatement of Hussein, or someone like him. With the religious fragmentation that exists in Iraq, the only thing that can hold that country together is someone who can opress the living hell out everyone and MAKE the people live together. Their culture is built on the foundation of their religion, and their religion encourages them to war against those that are different, subjegate those that are convertible, and kill the rest. Unless someone can step in and make these tribes live in peace through strong-arm tactics and fear, there will always be tribal warfare between the sects. That is their history. That is their mindset. That's what the Bush Administration doesn't understand.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by mbrown

Yes, Japan was even more isolated and 'backwards' then, compared to Iraq now...

The US was an occupying power in Japan and still is to some extent.

Patience people, have faith - It will happen in Iraq too.

The secret to your statement is that Japan was isolated. Japan had their own culture and their unified belief system. Iraq, and the middle east in general, is not at all like that. Iraq has many different sects with fundamentally different belief systems. They do not believe in the borders that the west imposes on them. The borders are the ones they place on themselves. The Bush Administration's idea of democracy will never take root in the middle east because the culture will not accept it. The people in the middle east will find their own way and find rules that work best for them, as long as the west keeps their nose out of their business. Trying to install a democracy at the end of a gun is impossible when you don't have an educated society and a fragmented belief structure. This experiment has failed, miserably, because the Bush Administration failed to understand the situation and tried to frame the problem from a western perspective rather than from a middle eastern perspective. The only way this situation works is if Iraq is broken up into four different countries and each allowed to do their own thing. Trying to force them to live together and allowing their religious beliefs to be the driving force in their daily lives does not work. Theor religion tells them one thing and the society tells them another. That is why a seperation of chuch and state is required in a functioning democracy. Until that speration can be enforced in the middle east, and people accept the concept of this speration, democracy will not work. All the US is doing is setting the region up for a civil war based on theological differences.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by mbrown

Yes, Japan was even more isolated and 'backwards' then, compared to Iraq now...

The US was an occupying power in Japan and still is to some extent.

Patience people, have faith - It will happen in Iraq too.

Japan is/was a highly structured and unified culture.
Iraq is fractured with fighting between many different groups, people and religious factions.
Japan had a national army that accepted their defeat.
Iraq has terrorist organizations who will kill and bomb, even though their country has been "defeated" (in the traditional sense of the word).
The circumstances are nothing alike.

[mbrown]

The circumstances vary, for sure - but the point is that you can force democracy on a society. Iraq will work.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by mbrown

The circumstances vary, for sure - but the point is that you can force democracy on a society. Iraq will work.

Was that the most obscene contradiction you could think up? Is forcing democracy upon another society even morally right?

It just don't work like that.

[mbrown]

If forcing democracy on a society that is being oppressed is the question, then yes I do think it is morally 'right'. You could almost say that it is morally wrong not to interfere, in my opinion. As long as the people have the say, then they can do as they wish.

freedom is not free.

[mbrown]

then maybe you'd care to share how it 'does work'?

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by mbrown

If forcing democracy on a society that is being oppressed is the question, then yes I do think it is morally 'right'. You could almost say that it is morally wrong not to interfere, in my opinion. As long as the people have the say, then they can do as they wish.

freedom is not free.

Who are you do decide what is moral for them?
I'm guessing that their moral code is very different from yours, and who are you to push your opinion on them?

I'd love to see them become a democracy, but you won't get one by force. That is called a dictatorship.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by mbrown

The circumstances vary, for sure - but the point is that you can force democracy on a society. Iraq will work.

Wow, I think I lost IQ points reading that statement. You might want to first understand what democracy is (it is NOT just casting a vote), what is required for democracy to work, and then try and figure out how you "force" the concept on people. Seriously, your statement is one of the dumbest I've ever read. You make George W. Bush sound like he's got it goin' on.

[mbrown]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Who are you do decide what is moral for them?
I'm guessing that their moral code is very different from yours, and who are you to push your opinion on them?

I'd love to see them become a democracy, but you won't get one by force. That is called a dictatorship.

haha

no it's not. Individual liberty and freedom is a human right. Just ask the UN.

[mbrown]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Wow, I think I lost IQ points reading that statement. You might want to first understand what democracy is (it is NOT just casting a vote), what is required for democracy to work, and then try and figure out how you "force" the concept on people. Seriously, your statement is one of the dumbest I've ever read. You make George W. Bush sound like he's got it goin' on.

Then you had better stop reading as from what I can gather from your posts here, you have nary a point to spare.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by mbrown

then maybe you'd care to share how it 'does work'?

There's an old saying 'You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink".
The Japanese obviously wanted change after their defeat and democracy seemed a good alternative.
The Iraqi's don't seem as desperate and aren't as united.
I'd say education plays a big part in making democracy work. Most democracies have evolved over many years.

[mbrown]

True, but Iraq had the best secular educational education system in the arab world. Alot of what we are seeing is Syria's influence on the baathist's and Sunni's and Iran's influence on the #####es. They are trying their hardest to make this fail and not for the good of the people of Iraq, but to try and humiliate the USA and a successfull, free Iraq scares the crap out of them. If it works, their populace may demand the same thing.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by mbrown

Then you had better stop reading as from what I can gather from your posts here, you have nary a point to spare.

Yeah, how about you show your "intelligence" and explain this thing called democracy and just how you can force it on a society there junior? Or are you going to run away and hide again? It seems you like to do that anytime you get challenged. Let's see if you got anything on the ball at all, or if your the junior high school puke I think you are.

[mbrown]

Well I gave you Japan, it worked there. You have been telling me that it was 'different' or whatever, but point in fact, you are asking me this:

"Yeah, how about you show your "intelligence" and explain this thing called democracy and just how you can force it on a society there junior?"

And Japan fits that criteria. Not my fault you stuck your foot in your mouth. (actually twice now)

Also, if it makes you feel better to attept to denigrate those that do not agree with you, then we all know who the 'junior high school puke' is.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by mbrown

True, but Iraq had the best secular educational education system in the arab world. Alot of what we are seeing is Syria's influence on the baathist's and Sunni's and Iran's influence on the #####es. They are trying their hardest to make this fail and not for the good of the people of Iraq, but to try and humiliate the USA and a successfull, free Iraq scares the crap out of them. If it works, their populace may demand the same thing.

Uh huh, and the Wahabists from Saudi Arabia are having their influence too. Oh, and you left out the Kurds from Turkey. What's your point? People need to understand what democracy is, how it works, and what their role is, before the mechanism works. You just don't drop a car off in the middle of the Amazon and think that the isolated indians of the region are going to hop right in and drive the thing away. The culture has not point of reference and has not idea what the democratic system is. Casting a vote and getting purple ink on your finger is NOT democracy in action. What is happening in Iraq is nothing more than a theocratic tribal war, directed by the imams, done under the guise of a fake vote. You could ask any of the people that voted what exactly they just cast their vote for and they would not be able to convey their reason. They'll give you the theocratic talking point, as given to them by their imam, but they have no idea what they actually just voted on. Comprehension of action is the first step towards a democracy.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by mbrown

Well I gave you Japan, it worked there. You have been telling me that it was 'different' or whatever, but point in fact, you are asking me this:

"Yeah, how about you show your "intelligence" and explain this thing called democracy and just how you can force it on a society there junior?"

And Japan fits that criteria. Not my fault you stuck your foot in your mouth. (actually twice now)

Also, if it makes you feel better to attept to denigrate those that do not agree with you, then we all know who the 'junior high school puke' is.

And you had the Japan argument rammed right down your throat by multiple posters. So put Japan away and focus on the much more complex middle eastern region, where you're unidimensional view of things is useless.