If you shop at Esso please read....

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by AaronSJ

I agree with Frank, although I understand your frustration.

The problem is that the store/manager hasn't done anything wrong, per se. If he chooses, for business reasons, to make certain customers pre-pay, then that's his perogative. He's likely come to the conclusion that it's more profitable for him to annoy unknown honest customers than to risk losing a tank full of gas every few days... and he's probably right. Is it fair? No. But life isn't fair.

Your best recourse is to never buy gas there again and encourage others to do the same. And move on...

Sooo......If I as a business owner choose to make people of colour pre-pay and allow white people to not pre-pay, Then I haven't done anything wrong, per se.

Ageism is a legitamite form of descrimination. Usually it is the other way around - older people are not hired for jobs because they may be harder to train, expect more money, be less willing to take their cues from younger people, etc...Either way, it is wrong.

Gundo, good for you to persue the issue. Yes, it might seem futile and come to nothing, but my experience has been that corporate types take written complaints very seriously. When you do write a complaint letter (not an email) make sure you try and do three things, a) stay civil and polite, b) try to mention a good point about the general service that you normally receive, and c) Always ask for what you want - be it a free item, a written apology from the manager, whatever - if you do not ask, you will not get and stating that you will no patronize the establishment ever again will get your letter filled under 'G'. You can make that statement in a follow up letter expressing your dissatifaction with their efforts.

What this complaint could lead to is a policy that everyone has to pre-pay every time (like a lot of stations in the States). Which is not so bad.

A Friend was asked for id at a restricted movie (he was 24 at the time) by an usher who was 15, My buddy complained that if they were going to id people they should a) id everyone, not just one person in the party, and b) the employee doing the id'ing should at least be old enough to cover the age restriction. He got 6 free movie passes.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Frank the Tank

Haha! Well being "old" (35) I'll tell you the first thing I learned in the "grown-up" world. Learn when to pick your battles. This battle, is not worth fighting guys. Go get gas somewhere else. Pretty simple really.

Every battle is worth fighting, it is just a matter of degrees.

Should Gundo go to the Surpreme Court? No, but the sitiuation does warrent a letter, if he is mad enough to take the time to write it. Should he try to get the guy fired? No, that should never be the goal of a consumer complaint.

If you just walk away, then there is no chance for change. At least with a letter there is a chance for change. Will he get a year of free gas, doubt it. Will the head office mention it to the manager, likely. Who knows, policy may even change, it has been known to happen.

Personally, I don't wnat to teach my kids that when they are wronged there is nothing they can do about it and sometimes it is not worth the effort so they should just move on.

Gundo won't end descrimination, but, hey, maybe the Esso guys will think about it for a bit and decide that a new policy should be that after a robbery, EVERYONE has to pre-pay.

It is always worth it, even if the process allows you to cool down a bit and realize that the wrong done to you was not personal or systemic.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Why didn't you just pay and move on? Or just move on?

Because he doesnt like getting screwed by some lowely gas station attendent cause some delinquents have absentee parenting.

If I were you I would write the Sun/Herald/Global/CTV/CityTV - one will likely take up the cause - and that way get Esso some bad press.

One thing I dont get - you said you tried to pay with debit from an account with 16$ - correct.

Why would that be denied since Interact is like pre-paying?

I had the same thing happen to a guy infront of me at a Shell in the North East - he happened to be of India/Pakistan desent (dont know how to tell the diff sorry) - if I was him I would have definately taken my case cause that is a definate case of racial profiling.

I am sure if you had the inclidation you could sue Esso and Imperial Oil for age discrimination/profiling becuase they dont have any legal headway unless its clearly posted - ie "Under 21 must pre-pay" I have seen that sign at alot of gas stations in Edmonton - none in Calgary surprisingly.

MYK

[AaronSJ]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Sooo......If I as a business owner choose to make people of colour pre-pay and allow white people to not pre-pay, Then I haven't done anything wrong, per se.

Ageism is a legitamite form of descrimination. Usually it is the other way around - older people are not hired for jobs because they may be harder to train, expect more money, be less willing to take their cues from younger people, etc...Either way, it is wrong.

I'm not arguing that it's discrimination - it most certainly is! But discrimination isn't always wrong (although it's often unfair). As you said, the Human Rights Act prohibits discrimination based on race, gender, age (but this does not apply to people <18 or >65). But the fact is that we discriminate EVERY DAY, and often based on these characteristics. And the courts have ruled that this is allowable, as long as there is a bonafide reason for it. Among some common examples: insurance rates, rental cars, seniors discounts, employment programs targeted at youth, etc. I'm sure even you have discriminated based on age before (ever been hit on by a cougar?).

Despite the fact that age is restricted grounds for discrimination, it is only wrong (in the eyes of our courts), when it is systematic and unjustifyable. And that's the difference between "wrong" and "unfair". In the case of the original poster, it doesn't appear to be either systematic or unjustified. Young people stole gas, so the owner wants all people he doesn't know to pre-pay. That's his choice, and he has the right to discriminate that way. Just because his reasoning was the "young people stole gas" doesn't automatically mean that he's discriminating against young people!

[4X4]

Usually, a debit prepayment authorizes for 70 bucks. He only had 16, so it didn't work. Haven't you ever used the debit prepament before? Itsays it right there.. Authorizing for $70.

Ageism? Grow up. The guy has been ripped off by young punks before. For $94. He won't let it happen again. Even if it means losing a $16 dollar sale.

Discrimination? Don't start mis-using that word. Victims of discrimination are people who can't do anything about who they are. Women, blacks, indians, whites, purples... Young people grow up. Hopefully into people that understand how busineses are run. Hopefully into people that know the old saying "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.".

Don't tell me that every single person you ever meet gets benifit of the doubt. I bet that you're just totally at ease walking through a group of 10 indians outside of the macs at 8th and 7th. I bet it doesn't even cross your mind that some indian gangster wannabe pulled some crap the night before.
Likewise for asians at the bar and for crazy white guys freaking out in traffic.

Get back to life, man. Quit looking for reasons to bitch. You don't like the service oyu got? Don't go back. But acting like you were discriminated against is an insult to people that have actually had their rights abused.

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by Gundo

Im on my way home from work today and the car needs gas, so I stop at the neighbourhood Esso I always stop at. I use my debit card to pre-pay for $16, because thats all I have in my one savings account Im about to close. So after the $16 pumps into the tank I replace the nozzle and go to finish filling up the car.

I dunno, honestly, I'd say that would look a little suspicious if I'd recently been ripped off of nearly $100 of gas... you filled your tank, then started filling it again. I could easily see that as being a trick gas thieves use to fool the attendants into thinking that you're all done and have pre-payed, then when you pull away without paying the second time, they don't notice.

-Scott

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by AaronSJ

the Human Rights Act prohibits discrimination based on race, gender, age (but this does not apply to people <18 or >65).

For the record:

Equality rights in the charter of rights and freedoms:

(1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability. (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/const/a....html#equality)

It clearly does not limit ageism to children or the elderly.

But the fact is that we discriminate EVERY DAY, and often based on these characteristics. And the courts have ruled that this is allowable, as long as there is a bonafide reason for it. Among some common examples: insurance rates, rental cars, seniors discounts, employment programs targeted at youth, etc. I'm sure even you have discriminated based on age before (ever been hit on by a cougar?).

Insurance companies (in ON anyway) are not allowed to desriminate due to age or sex anymore - it is all linked to graduated licencing.

Rental Car companies will rent to young drivers if they can prove they have been licensed for a period of time, can pay for the extra insurance and show a decent line of credit.

Seniors discounts - I am not going to argue about a 80 year old guy getting 20% off the price of adult daipers.

Youth employment programs have always bothered me, and I wrote my elected reps about them. They do not take into consideration mature students who also have the summer off nor regular canadians looking for a career change.

Been hit on by a couger - no, I haven't. I am quite ugly and no 40 yr old woman has been desperate enough to hit on me.

Despite the fact that age is restricted grounds for discrimination, it is only wrong (in the eyes of our courts), when it is systematic and unjustifyable. And that's the difference between "wrong" and "unfair". In the case of the original poster, it doesn't appear to be either systematic or unjustified. Young people stole gas, so the owner wants all people he doesn't know to pre-pay. That's his choice, and he has the right to discriminate that way. Just because his reasoning was the "young people stole gas" doesn't automatically mean that he's discriminating against young people!

It means he is just making young people do something older people do not have to, like sit at the back of the bus. If the manager got a security guard to only stand next to cars being filled up by black people, would that be "systematic" and "unjustified"? ( what it is is profiling - a young person stole so all young people are under suspicion) The guy is not an owner - he is a manager. He clearly made up policy on the fly and decided that people who look young to him have to pre-pay. That is descrimination. Is it justified? no, it is painting an entire group of people with the same brush (ie- are all muslims terrorists?).
And you can say it is his right to choose who has to do what in his store, but wouldn't it be better if there was a corporate policy in place stating that all customers have to pre-pay for 7 days after a robbery?

And yes, the whole thread looks like it is making a mountain out of a molehill, but I am not advocating that you should take the guy to court. Write a complaint letter, describe the situation, offer an alternative and ask for compensation. Head office pays a lot of people a lot of money to deal with these things.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Gundo

Im a white male, and the mananger was Hindu.

How do you know he was Hindu, did you ask his religion? Or did you assume it because he was brown? He could be Muslim..so you basically made an assumption about him based on appearance?? I think you owe him an apology too.

[Frank the Tank]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Personally, I don't wnat to teach my kids that when they are wronged there is nothing they can do about it and sometimes it is not worth the effort so they should just move on.

Thats fine, but thats exactly what I am going to teach my kid. Pick your battles and don't get hung up on something as silly as this. The best voice you have as a consumer is to take your cash across the street to the competition.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Frank the Tank

Thats fine, but thats exactly what I am going to teach my kid. Pick your battles and don't get hung up on something as silly as this. The best voice you have as a consumer is to take your cash across the street to the competition.

Is ESSO really going to miss his $50 a week? Will that manager really notice that Gundo is not buying his gas there anymore?

Or will read, and file, and discuss his letter, which in the consumer relations world represents 10-20 people. Even if they do not act on it, someone at ESSO will notice there was a problem.

Yes, don't get hung up on it, don't be miserable for a week, don't expect the manager's head on a platter, don't fight this one tooth and nail for the next decade.

Yes, taking your cash across the street is a powerful statement, if you are making it against a mom&pop shop that will notice. Multi-national conglomerates know that if you don't spend $50, someone else will.

What is silly is a matter of perception.

The city in the "man sues self" article in another thread thinks it is silly to be sued by an employee - and will, until (and if) they have to pay the $4800.

[Barnes]

Your absolutly right Frank but....

Consumers have two options: complain or walk. I am sure if the owner of the said gas station was aware of the situation he would want to know why a person was not shopping at their establishment and resolve the problem be it internal (staff making up policy) or external (the pump-prepay switcharo looking suspicious).

I have had quite a few experiences were I felt I have been wronged and complained. Some issues were resolved by descion makers and some were not so they don't get my business anymore. No skin of my back. I can always go somewhere else but they atleast deserve to know why I am going elsewhere.

[ken0042]

A few people are saying this is a case of discrimination. I think another way of looking at it is an issue of granting credit. When you buy gas, you are taking their product and putting it on your property; in a manor it can't easily be returned. The attendant is granting credit based on a quick glance. Obviously this "credit" is very short term. But it is still credit.

A couple of years ago my car broke down on the highway. Going into town the guy running the service station lent me tools just on the basis of his impression of me. If somebody younger than me tried the same thing and the guy said no, would he then be discriminating?

I agree- write a letter and go somewhere else.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Multi-national conglomerates know that if you don't spend $50, someone else will.

Well he isn't on a waiting list with people behind him pining for the privelege to buy Esso gas. If his 4 trips a week to the gas station disappear, that's it, they are gone. Nobody is going to pick up the slack.

Sure, Esso isn't going to notice one missing customer or even if the whole station shuts down, but the guy who owns the gas station probably will notice if people stop buying gas because his staff is driving customers away.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by ken0042

A few people are saying this is a case of discrimination. I think another way of looking at it is an issue of granting credit. When you buy gas, you are taking their product and putting it on your property; in a manor it can't easily be returned. The attendant is granting credit based on a quick glance. Obviously this "credit" is very short term. But it is still credit.

A couple of years ago my car broke down on the highway. Going into town the guy running the service station lent me tools just on the basis of his impression of me. If somebody younger than me tried the same thing and the guy said no, would he then be discriminating?

I agree- write a letter and go somewhere else.

That's a good point.

Of course the credit process is income descrimination (don't make fun - the term was coined by Maxime Bernier - Minister of Indusrty). Also, Gunder gave what could be considered areasonable, acceptable impression when his bought the first $16 on his debit card - that showed he a) had money, & b) was willing to pay for gas. So they manager turned down his credit application because he was bla..er..young.

And the attendant is not in a position to grant or not grant this credit, he is an employee whose job it is to uphold company policies. Company says everybody pre-pays, then everybody pre-pays, company says nobody has to pre-pay, then nobody has to pre-pay. Employees cannot make up policy as they go along (they'd start to think they were politicians).

If the highway station guy had said no to you, it would not have been descrimination, unless the station had a policy of lending out their tools. If the station has a policy of lending tools with a deposit, then he could not reasonably refuse you. If there was no policy and he refused you it would be descrimination, but you would have little recourse since the station has no policy regarding lending of tools.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by fotze

Just to **** you off....

NEW YORK - In the headlines this afternoon, it's been a record quarter and year for Exxon Mobil.

The oil giant raked in $8.42 billion in the fourth quarter and more than $25 billion for all of 2004, both record-high profits in its history. Exxon Mobil (nyse: XOM - news - people ) blew away Wall Street forecasts, as higher oil and natural-gas prices offset a slight dip in production.

http://www.forbes.com/markets/2005/0...131video2.html

..and btw Esso is owned by exxon if you didn't know.

Like I say, they won't miss his money.

But, I think a number of stations are franchises and if their individual sales drop, they will wonder why....Which is why a person is better off making a stink rather then just walking away. If you walk away nothing happens. The owner has no idea that you left and won't fix the problem and you may get annoyed with the new place you got to, which sends you back to the orginal station and still no imporvement.

Also, those Americans are way more service concious than we are and take the letter writing thing very seriously.

[Jayems]

hey, i took my bottle depot problem up (was about getting ripped off bad out in bragg creek, i had a similar bitch thread started too).

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=19572

I Called the guy back, asked him to own up, he refused, I said Ill take it a step further, he said fine.

I called the company that handles/manages all the bottle depots in the area, wrote a nice little e-mail telling my complaints.

The manager wrote me an email, and told me to call him. So i did.

We talked for about 15 minutes about the incident, and that I don't really care about the money now, but its really disturbing they would rip me off and then lie to my face. The manager said he called the depot, and the depot guy said I only took in milk cartons which they don't accept (BS).

I explained everything from my view, and said that if no one else calls you guys, they can keep getting away with ripping people off. That was the only reason i wanted to complain.

Either way, the guy (manager) was nice, and he said that the complaint had been lodged, and was now on their official record, as wells as the depots record.

Did I get my $50? No. But i know that thoese guys probably wont rip anyone else off for a while.

[icarus]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

That's a good point.

Of course the credit process is income descrimination (don't make fun - the term was coined by Maxime Bernier - Minister of Indusrty). Also, Gunder gave what could be considered areasonable, acceptable impression when his bought the first $16 on his debit card - that showed he a) had money, & b) was willing to pay for gas. So they manager turned down his credit application because he was bla..er..young.

And the attendant is not in a position to grant or not grant this credit, he is an employee whose job it is to uphold company policies. Company says everybody pre-pays, then everybody pre-pays, company says nobody has to pre-pay, then nobody has to pre-pay. Employees cannot make up policy as they go along (they'd start to think they were politicians).

If the highway station guy had said no to you, it would not have been descrimination, unless the station had a policy of lending out their tools. If the station has a policy of lending tools with a deposit, then he could not reasonably refuse you. If there was no policy and he refused you it would be descrimination, but you would have little recourse since the station has no policy regarding lending of tools.

Precisely. It is a service customarily available to the public, to use the term from the legislation.

Now age isn't enumerated as a prohibited ground for discrimination under s. 4 of Alberta's Human Rights, Citizenship, and Multiculturalism Act so who knows whether this would apply here, but in the case of Vriend v. Alberta the Supreme Court read sexual orientation into the Act as a prohibited ground for discrimination. I know of no caselaw off the top of my head that has found discrimination on the basis of someone being 'young' but that doesn't mean there is none.

Also, I strongly disagree with Aaron SJ's contention that the discrimination here was justified, which would excuse the breach under s. 11 of the Act.

[return to the red]

A bunch of varrying takes on this scenario. I had the same problem the other night in Lethbridge where I had to prepay, it wouldn't even accept my credit card! twas an Esso as well. I didn't give it any thought at the time but I do agree a letter should be sent. Will it lead to anything, probably not but i'm sure this happens all the time and just think if everyone took the time to complain.

[habernac]

pretty much everywhere in the US I've been to lately makes you prepay. Doesn't affect me at all as I pay at the pump directly all the time.

[Sparks]

I think I saw my local Petro with a "Prepay before fuelling" sign, recently. I'm not sure if they're moving towards that at all of their stations, or if it was just the station I was at.

I think a letter to Esso would be taken more seriously, as in Jayem's case, if you just say you feel you were treated unfairly, that you have had good service in the past, and that you aren't looking for a handout (coupons, etc). That shows them you're being honest and are doing them a favour, instead of expecting them to do you a favour. Then, take your buisness elsewhere - but don't tell them that you will. If they feel they've wronged a loyal customer, who would like to remain a loyal customer, I think they'll be more likely to take some action. My best guess, anyways.