September 11th Thread

[flamesfever]

For me the 9/11 attacks increased my awareness that we are all a part of the global village, and that anything that happens in other parts of the world affects us all. In this case, much more directly than we ever thought possible.

Changing the world for the better starts with each person, and I commend you MMM for taking the time to donate blood. If mine wasn't so old I'd probably do the same. I don't know what I am going to do in memory of the tragic event - probably make an extra donation at church tomorrow.

[transplant99]

For all of you who admonish those who don't think Sept. 11th was a big deal, how come you're only remembering Americans who died?

Ummm..because TODAY is the 3rd anniversary of 9/11 maybe? You want to start a thread on all the anniversary dates of other things that happened...knock yourself out. Why must you pollute a remebrance with this sort of BS argument?

Maybe we should protest Novemebr 11 as well then huh? I mean people from all over died in WW2 right?

Wow. You people are unbelievable...its a thread to remember what happened 3 years ago to the day. Nothing more and nothing less....and you were requested to NOT make these inane comments along the way but somehow you feel you just had to "add" them

Grow up.

[Weiser Wonder]

People aren't allowed to mourn a tragedy just because worse have happened? Worse have happened and happen all the time. But come on people! 3,000 people died. Not all wealthy, not all poor, all people. Everyone both in the USA and Canada were effected by it. Sure the 9/11 has been politicized but that doesn't mean we have to politicize it. This is a day of rememberance.

I remember waking up and watching CNBC when they cut to the coverage of the first tower on fire. And seeing the second plane hit the tower. Horrible...

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally posted by evman150@Sep 11 2004, 01:17 AM
Anybody else terribly apathetic about the whole thing?

Cause I know I am.

Then why did you comment? Why did you even click on the topic? Doesn't make much sense to me..

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by transplant99@Sep 11 2004, 05:15 PM
Ummm..because TODAY is the 3rd anniversary of 9/11 maybe? You want to start a thread on all the anniversary dates of other things that happened...knock yourself out. Why must you pollute a remebrance with this sort of BS argument?

Maybe we should protest Novemebr 11 as well then huh? I mean people from all over died in WW2 right?

Wow. You people are unbelievable...its a thread to remember what happened 3 years ago to the day. Nothing more and nothing less....and you were requested to NOT make these inane comments along the way but somehow you feel you just had to "add" them

Grow up.

Right. The point is not that I have now dedicated myself to starting threads on every day something bad happened to people, the point was to question why this particular group of people are given far more memorial status than many other groups of people who were technically of greater 'quantity' (if that matters). I have no problem remembering dead people, I just think its hypocritical to remember our dead people and not even count, let alone remember, those whose deaths we've (the West) have inadvertantly and directly caused all over the world (which is probably an important count to make, given that its probably responsible for our own 9/11 count of over 3,000 dead).

Protest November 11th? That would be stupid, I'm not sure why you mentioned that.

I love the "you people" quote, that line always makes me appreciate where the other side is coming from.

FYI Tranny, as you well know, this is an opinion forum. I'm glad you came out w/ yours, I'm not sure why you believe my point of view is not entitled to be here. Thanks for being the ethics police, I appreciate knowing when I've gone over the line, in your opinion.

[peter12]

Why don't we have a day commemorating the Oklahoma bombing?? Terrorists did that too... but oh wait they were American.
I am not downplaying it at all. It was freaky, the first attack on mainland USA. Millions saw it happen live.

But some people are turning into a cult of sorts, oh you can't speak out on Sept.11. Come on, admit worse things have happened in the world. Last summer I went to a refugee camp in Armenia which had children coming from the war in Azerbijan. I saw terrible things that day. Worse than I saw on CNN.

[FlamesAddiction]

9/11 wasn't just an attack on the U.S., it was an attack on the western world.

America symbolizes western culture and became a target for the attack, but that doesn't mean that all countries that are active participants in our culture and civilization should be apathetic or feel unaffected. It wasn't simply an event that only affected Americans. The boundaries between nation states are only imaginary lines.

[transplant99]

FYI Tranny, as you well know, this is an opinion forum. I'm glad you came out w/ yours, I'm not sure why you believe my point of view is not entitled to be here.

because THIS thread isnt about opinions...its about remebrance, but if you are not able to grasp the differance. So be it.

Well done.

I love the "you people" quote, that line always makes me appreciate where the other side is coming from.

What "side" is that exactly?

The "side" that wishes to remember the innocent people that dies on September 11th 2001?

If thats taking sides...so be it and i am proud to do so.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction@Sep 11 2004, 06:03 PM
9/11 wasn't just an attack on the U.S., it was an attack on the western world.

America symbolizes western culture and became a target for the attack, but that doesn't mean that all countries that are active participants in our culture and civilization should be apathetic or feel unaffected. It wasn't simply an event that only affected Americans. The boundaries between nation states are only imaginary lines.

You've probably got a point there, but I'd argue against the "western world" concept. I'm pretty sure that the attack on the WTC was not to let France know that they were in trouble, or tell Russia to ease up on the Chechens. It was an attack directly aimed at the US, and, if you believe the statements of the people who set it up (bin Laden), then the US was the primary, singular target of the attack.

The danger of starting the whole 'western world' tirade is that it excuses US behaviour and re-categorizes it as 'western' behaviour, which means the 'western' world is at fault, which means the US isn't.

Also, your line of argument probably eventually gets at how bin Laden and global terrorism hate 'freedom', 'democracy', and 'American values', which most experts know is complete junk. I'm sure bin Laden isn't real happy w/ our veilless women, or their being allowed to vote, but the reason for bin Laden organizing terrorist strikes instead of living it up on his billions is because of US support for the Saudi and Israeli regimes. These two issues are at the top of his excuse list for causing terror. Not democracy, and, if he's read the Koran, not religion either, since we, as Christians, are people of the book, and to be tolerated (unless we basically dominate your (Muslim) asses, in which case you can probably forget about the whole book thing

9/11 was a terrible event. It changed the geo-political nature of North America and the World. However, by commemorating it at all, political debate is, by the necessity created by local domestic politics, going to arise from 9/11. You say we should remember them, I agree. I say we should remember others, I get attacked. I love online forums

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by transplant99@Sep 11 2004, 06:10 PM
because THIS thread isnt about opinions...its about remebrance, but if you are not able to grasp the differance. So be it.

Well done.

Oops, sorry, my bad. I thought that opinion would be ok on this thread, but clearly this is a kow-tow only zone, my mistake.

Your 'side' are those who want to remember 9/11? Well, I guess I'm on your side, I'm pretty sure that its a memorable event. Also, you were the one that said "you people", not me. Maybe you'd like to tell me who these people are, so I know what category I fit in. Though I'm not sure why you think discussion on the topic should be outside the realm of decency. You're to be commended on your rememberance, and your pride is clearly well placed.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@Sep 11 2004, 06:13 PM
You've probably got a point there, but I'd argue against the "western world" concept. I'm pretty sure that the attack on the WTC was not to let France know that they were in trouble, or tell Russia to ease up on the Chechens. It was an attack directly aimed at the US, and, if you believe the statements of the people who set it up (bin Laden), then the US was the primary, singular target of the attack.

The danger of starting the whole 'western world' tirade is that it excuses US behaviour and re-categorizes it as 'western' behaviour, which means the 'western' world is at fault, which means the US isn't.

Also, your line of argument probably eventually gets at how bin Laden and global terrorism hate 'freedom', 'democracy', and 'American values', which most experts know is complete junk. I'm sure bin Laden isn't real happy w/ our veilless women, or their being allowed to vote, but the reason for bin Laden organizing terrorist strikes instead of living it up on his billions is because of US support for the Saudi and Israeli regimes. These two issues are at the top of his excuse list for causing terror. Not democracy, and, if he's read the Koran, not religion either, since we, as Christians, are people of the book, and to be tolerated (unless we basically dominate your (Muslim) asses, in which case you can probably forget about the whole book thing

9/11 was a terrible event. It changed the geo-political nature of North America and the World. However, by commemorating it at all, political debate is, by the necessity created by local domestic politics, going to arise from 9/11. You say we should remember them, I agree. I say we should remember others, I get attacked. I love online forums

I'm not saying that American foreign policy should be let of the hook, nor do I believe that 'hating freedom and democracy' jibberish. I do however think that most western nations bear the same responsibility as being direct or indirect participants in American foreign policy. Canada may not have an active 365-day/year middle east policy, but we certainly benefit from American foreign policy in that region. We use more oil per capita than any country in the world, and our civilizations need for oil is prime reason why middle east and western civiliations are conflicting right now.

[Cube Inmate]

I'm gonna try to drag this in a different direction:

I didn't know anybody who died that day, but I mourn the loss of the world we knew prior to it. Before that, I had some hope that the world was becoming a better place, and we were finally growing up as a human civilization...bin Laden et. al proved me wrong, and I'm saddened by that fact.

[transplant99]

Oops, sorry, my bad. I thought that opinion would be ok on this thread, but clearly this is a kow-tow only zone, my mistake.

yeah pretty hard to figure out when the SECOND line in this entire thread states..

Nothing regarding politics should be posted here but more just a thread of thoughts on the anniversary of that date.

Comprehesion problems?

Also, you were the one that said "you people", not me. Maybe you'd like to tell me who these people are, so I know what category I fit in.

Ones that attempt to hijack a topic that clearly states NOT to make comments on something OTHER than the topic at hand. You clearly fit in that category. Comparing what happened on 9/11 because "other people died on other dates in other countries at the hands of the US" has what exactly to do with this thread and its intended purpose?

Holy smokes.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction@Sep 11 2004, 06:25 PM
I'm not saying that American foreign policy should be let of the hook, nor do I believe that 'hating freedom and democracy' jibberish. I do however think that most western nations bear the same responsibility as being direct or indirect participants in American foreign policy. Canada may not have an active 365-day/year middle east policy, but we certainly benefit from American foreign policy in that region. We use more oil per capita than any country in the world, and our civilizations need for oil is prime reason why middle east and western civiliations are conflicting right now.

Definitely agree with everything you've said. Many more countries are responsible for the problems w/ terror and the Middle East than just the US.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by transplant99@Sep 11 2004, 06:26 PM
Oops, sorry, my bad. I thought that opinion would be ok on this thread, but clearly this is a kow-tow only zone, my mistake.

yeah pretty hard to figure out when the SECOND line in this entire thread states..

Nothing regarding politics should be posted here but more just a thread of thoughts on the anniversary of that date.

Comprehesion problems?

Also, you were the one that said "you people", not me. Maybe you'd like to tell me who these people are, so I know what category I fit in.

Ones that attempt to hijack a topic that clearly states NOT to make comments on something OTHER than the topic at hand. You clearly fit in that category. Comparing what happened on 9/11 because "other people died on other dates in other countries at the hands of the US" has what exactly to do with this thread and its intended purpose?

Holy smokes.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure I adressed that 'no politics' request in my first post, and I stand by it, regardless of what you think. Clearly its a result of my comprehension problems.

As to your second point, if you're going to start a thread on a contentious topic, a little bit of debate is to be expected. If I said, "this is a thread about the Democratic Party, please, only support for Democrats in this thread.", I could probably expect to find a healthy amount of debate. While 9/11 as a tragic event should be above politics, every politician and news corporation speaking in the US right now seems to disagree w/ you on whether it is politicized or not (clearly it is, as there are even political ads about it on major networks, supporting or detracting from Presidential candidates). I already stated that I was sorry 9/11 happened. I'm also sorry about the sycophantic state some people have gotten themselves into about it.

Talk about self-righteous.

[transplant99]

As to your second point, if you're going to start a thread on a contentious topic,

how is remembering the loss of 3,000+ lives a "contentious topic" exactly?

Good grief.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by transplant99@Sep 11 2004, 06:38 PM
As to your second point, if you're going to start a thread on a contentious topic,

how is remembering the loss of 3,000+ lives a "contentious topic" exactly?

Good grief.

As far as I'm concerned, when my posts are deleted by a moderator, then I'm clearly being inappropriate. I was responding to a post on this thread, not to the thread in itself.

I don't get why its wrong to talk about the consequences of this event. People have been debating whether or not the US should have dropped the Atomic bomb on Japan, where thousands and thousands died. I don't hear protest that its inappropriate to talk about that just because the people died.

In fact, I think debate over the political ramifications of 9/11 is supremely important, as it assists us in identifying why they died. If we didn't care, and just mourned the dead w/out asking questions about WHY, we'd be doing them a disservice.

Honestly, if you don't want to have this conversation, stop replying.

[transplant99]

Honestly, if you cant grasp the fact that you and others have hijacked this thread from its intended purpose which was to remember people that died 3 years ago today (regardless of why it happened or whats happened since) then start your own thread.

Or quit replying if you dont want to admit that fact. Works both ways.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by transplant99@Sep 11 2004, 07:03 PM
Honestly, if you cant grasp the fact that you and others have hijacked this thread from its intended purpose which was to remember people that died 3 years ago today (regardless of why it happened or whats happened since) then start your own thread.

Or quit replying if you dont want to admit that fact. Works both ways.

I guess the reason this thread is 'hijacked' is simply because I don't identify w/ the victims of 9/11 any more than I do with Iraqi's, Israelis, Arabs, or Australians who are being killed every day. It all sucks. I'm offended that we would pick one group out of the many to honour because they were 'our' casualties. I find the notion racist, implying that 'our' 3,000+ dead are worth remembering more than any other dead of any other state.

It was a tragedy. When are we going to realize that the tragedy had real causes. We're attacking the symptoms (terrorism) instead of the disease (worldwide economic injustice and imbalance).

It takes two to hijack a thread. You've been a more than willing partner.

[transplant99]

I guess the reason this thread is 'hijacked' is simply because I don't identify w/ the victims of 9/11 any more than I do with Iraqi's, Israelis, Arabs, or Australians who are being killed every day. It all sucks. I'm offended that we would pick one group out of the many to honour because they were 'our' casualties.

Citizens of 61 countries died that day...but yes we are picking ONE group to honor got it.

Also, you do realize TODAY is the anniversary of the event right? Hence remembering those who died ON THIS DAY.

I find the notion racist, implying that 'our' 3,000+ dead are worth remembering more than any other dead of any other state

Rascist to remember people of 60 nations who died one day doing nothing more than going to work to make their lives better?

Wow. OK.
And WHERE did ANYONE say that "'our' 3,000+ dead are worth remembering more than any other dead of any other state"???

Making stuff up now.

It takes two to hijack a thread. You've been a more than willing partner.


Sorry, my only reason to resond in this thing was to help remember the people that died 3 years ago. Yours isnt. You lose.