Class action lawsuit against NCAA for preventing Major Junior players from playing

[MegaErtz]

Let them sleep in their own beds every night, or pay them like the professionals they are. I don't think any parent thinks the Canadian approach towards hockey development at this age is healthy for any child, which is what they are. Paying a sixteen year old $100 a week to give up attending school and living a normal life under the supervision of their parents is unacceptable.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by MegaErtz

If the sport can't survive without profiting off the backs of slave labour, then it doesn't deserve to exit.

“Slave labour” is pretty sensationalist. So is the notion that these leagues are major profit centres.

If you want to argue that they should get rid of the CHL and all these kids should have their families pay full freight for their equipment, travel, room and board, and education, that’s fine I guess, but it seems like you’re out to get the players just as much as the league.

The vast majority of CHL players do not take issue with the league structure, and 100% play in it by choice.

That’s hardly slavery.

[Zoller]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

...So is the notion that these leagues are major profit centres...

There was a lawsuit about all this and I don't recall if the financials of the clubs were ever made public.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Zoller

There was a lawsuit about all this and I don't recall if the financials of the clubs were ever made public.

I am guessing it is kind of similar to NHL teams. Profit is low but valuations are decent.

[Locke]

I am not a big aficionado of Jr. Hockey or NCAA.

If I were to ask for one thing? These kids are offered educations and scholarships and I think that really should be prioritized.

Really push the education harder.

Pro hockey is often not a career, its an opportunity and even if you play it perfectly you'll likely be retired before you're 40.

That education while you play hockey as a kid? It could be invaluable.

Because you might make millions as a pro player but you're still going to have to do something with the tail-end of your life or its brewskies and nose candy and a real early checkout.

[Bubba17]

Originally Posted by Locke

I am not a big aficionado of Jr. Hockey or NCAA.

If I were to ask for one thing? These kids are offered educations and scholarships and I think that really should be prioritized.

Really push the education harder.

Pro hockey is often not a career, its an opportunity and even if you play it perfectly you'll likely be retired before you're 40.

That education while you play hockey as a kid? It could be invaluable.

Because you might make millions as a pro player but you're still going to have to do something with the tail-end of your life or its brewskies and nose candy and a real early checkout.

I believe that the CHL pays tuition for kids. 1 year for each year played in the CHL, only if they don't play pro games. So the kids get to develop towards their goal and if it doesn't happen they can then attend university and get their education.

The NCAA gives scholarships that is it. Most of the talented players are gone long before they complete college.

[Ryan Coke]

Originally Posted by Bubba17

I believe that the CHL pays tuition for kids. 1 year for each year played in the CHL, only if they don't play pro games. So the kids get to develop towards their goal and if it doesn't happen they can then attend university and get their education.

The NCAA gives scholarships that is it. Most of the talented players are gone long before they complete college.

Even then, the tuition the CHL provides has to be used in a very short period (can’t remember the exact time limit) or forfeited. So if a player plays in a minor league or Europe for a couple of years before their dream fizzles out, they get nothing for education. That seems wrong as well.

[TimSJ]

I can only speak to the QMJHL but that is correct you can max out at I believe it is $36k if you play 4 years in the league.

My kid isn't making the NHL and wants to eventually go to medical school they way he looks at is if I can play 4 years in the Q take my $36k and then play Usports and get some more money from them my undergrad is paid.

He is a good student though. We have talked and realistically he's not making the Q at 16 but should have a real shot for next year. he has a JR A team that would like him this year but he will come back to U18 Major where can fundamentally finish high school this year get his AP Biology, Chem and Calc done and then next year finish his couple of high school courses and start taking 1 or 2 university courses a semester playing in the Q if he makes it.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

Even then, the tuition the CHL provides has to be used in a very short period (can’t remember the exact time limit) or forfeited. So if a player plays in a minor league or Europe for a couple of years before their dream fizzles out, they get nothing for education. That seems wrong as well.

I actually think it seems pretty fair. A former co worker used his years in the CHL towards an education and eventually became an engineer. I don’t know a ton of the ins and outs but it’s a pretty fair choice. Go to Europe, travel, play hockey and make a significant amount of money or receive a hell of a scholarship and get to work like everyone else.

Hell I would have killed to have my education fully or even mostly paid for.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Bonded

You'd need to replicate the absolutely insane support for high school sports in the US and don't think Canada will go for that.

Not really. It's only really football that high school sports the feeder leagues for NCAA/Pro.

The rest are academies, travel clubs, other elite junior tournaments, AAU, and so on. For almost every non-football sport, college coaches don't care anything about what someone does on a high school team.

He has a point that 16 year olds do not need to be playing an almost nhl like travel schedule to develop as elite athletes.

[MegaErtz]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

Not really. It's only really football that high school sports the feeder leagues for NCAA/Pro.

The rest are academies, travel clubs, other elite junior tournaments, AAU, and so on. For almost every non-football sport, college coaches don't care anything about what someone does on a high school team.

He has a point that 16 year olds do not need to be playing an almost nhl like travel schedule to develop as elite athletes.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[transplant99]

All major junior, and even lower leagues, have players who choose to be there. No one forces them to play.

Being there are a plethora of other options beyond major junior for teen aged players, it's entirely disingenuous to label them as "slave labour", and really offensive to those that were actually slaves.

The CHL, and similar entities, exist solely because young men are looking to get better by playing against the best of their age groups with an eye on turning their skills into a launch pad towards secondary schooling or professional hockey. Someone will have to explain to me how that happens without travelling to various areas to do so.

As to the NCAA rule itself, could not agree more that its completely stupid, outdated and living in the past. I would wager that they change their stance on this before it ever gets as far as trial. For what was maybe the most archaic organization in the USA until recently, they have really started to change their ways in the last decade and this will be another one.

[fotze2]

Know someone who has loked at buying a junior team in the west (AJ, BCH, or WHL) and looking at the their books, they do not make much money if at all. There are the rich teams owned by extremely wealthy people that subsidize the operations. i.e. Kamloops, Seattle TBirds, Blackfalds, etc, but that is the exception. But there are a tonne of very 'scraping by' teams.

...that said, these "businesses" should not be able to have as much control over people they are not paying. It sure wouldn't be allowed if it was adults.

I agree sleeping in their own bed is way preferable but the competition is so spread out as is the talent base, there really is no other better way for this to happen.

You would need a superleague of sorts to somehow corral the talent into teams and there would still be kids who couldn't sleep in their beds. Dauphin Manitoba isn't going to be a super team.

The current system, as massively flawed as it is, is the best there is. There's a reason Brooks bandits is made up of primarily non-albertan kids. American kids or european kids or Ontario kids are moving to (Alberta's anus) because its the best situation they could find for their rockstar kid.

There is this trope in hockey that a great kid will be found no matter what. Yes the exceptional kid probably will, but what about the other 98% of elite players. Why in the world is Landon Dupont not playing with the Calgary Royals. Because they suck and his competition would suck and every expert hockey person (the ones who are paid) recommend he needs to play with and against way better competition.

Everyone in this area of the world says that getting drafted beyond the 2nd round in the dub draft is a negative for the player and it makes total sense. At that point its ideal to be the best player not drafted to a team. Now you have all the choices and not doomed to live in Prince Albert.

[powderjunkie]

I think the WHL could at least regionalize the draft to some degree. MB/SK teams can only draft MB and SK players. AB=AB. BC=BC. US=US. Playing WHL shouldn't mean moving two time zones away from your family.

But a quick look at the recent draft shows that there are pretty much zero US players drafted...probably because they don't want to give up NCAA eligibility (so fix that, too).

Int'l players could go anywhere, or maybe they are US only until that available talent catches up.

Just looking at the most recent top 10 picks:
5 AB kids drafted all went out of province
3 SK kids all went out of province to the west
1 Victoria BC kid got sent to Siberia (Prince Albert), and 1 Vancouver kid got to go to Victoria


In the next 20 picks six guys stayed within the region described above. So 23 of the top 30 picks had to move very far from home.

Or maybe the 1st round is a free-for-all and then some proximity restrictions kick in. The 108th pick was drafted 1600 kms/17 hr drive from home. The 175th pick was 20 hrs.

Or maybe 15/16 year olds are just done in a regional draft and then they re-enter the wider draft at age 17

[Oil Stain]

The Canadian junior league compensation is crap for sure.

Capped at $250 per month for players. So we are talking maybe $2500 per player for stipend, and $9000 for a year's worth of scholarship.

So for a 23 man roster, the players are getting compensated a total of $265,000 per year.

http://https://thehockeynews.com/new...ing-to-players

The Red Deer Rebels for example pay out substantially more than that every year for "Management fees".

"Smith’s report cited the Red Deer Rebels as an example. It pointed out that according to the Rebels’ own financial report, the team paid out $1.49 million in “management fees” in the fiscal 2016 year. That compared to $652,600 in 2012, $400,000 in 2013, $700,000 in 2014 and $725,000 in 2015. “Based on the large increase in the fiscal 2016 management fees,” Smith’s report says, “it appears that a significant portion of those management fees may be a distribution of profit.”"

They paid $1.5 million in management fees in 2016. Probably double that now at least.

If the teams can afford those kind of expenses, they can afford better compensation for players. They end up having to only pay out a small percentage of their scholarship fees as well. Anyone that goes to a pro league for more than one year loses their scholarship, and a lot of players just are unlikely to utilize them anyway. If you become a police officer or fire fighter, or a salesperson you end up getting almost nothing from 4 years of service to the team.

If I was a parent of a potential NHL prospect I would be heavily advocating the NCAA route. The value of a full ride scholarship is worth much more than what the Canadian Junior Leagues offer over a 4 year career, and you don't have to worry about trades, long bus rides 2-3 times per week, or being stuck in a one horse town.

[Reggie Dunlop]

I don't know if it's still true, but from what I understand the Calgary Hitmen are the most valuable Major Junior franchise in the country.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

I don't know if it's still true, but from what I understand the Calgary Hitmen are the most valuable Major Junior franchise in the country.

Ontario Hockey League Team Values
RK OHL Team Value
1 Ottawa 67s $55.53 M
2 Mississauga Steelheads $44.85 M
3 Hamilton Bulldogs $32.69 M
4 London Knights $23.02 M
5 Kitchener Rangers $13.78 M
6 Windsor Spitfires $13.26 M
7 Sudbury Wolves $10.08 M
8 Oshawa Generals $9.41 M
9 Barrie Colts $8.53 M
10 Niagara IceDogs $8.26 M
11 Guelph Storm $7.69 M
12 Kingston Frontenacs $7.76 M
13 Erie Otters $6.25 M
14 Flint Firebirds $6.22 M
15 Peterborough Petes $4.95 M
16 Sault Ste. Marie Greyhounds $4.72 M
17 Sarnia Sting $4.55 M
18 North Bay Battalion $3.37 M
19 Saginaw Spirit $3.13 M
20 Owen Sound Attack $1.36 M


Western Hockey League Team Values
RK WHL Team Value
1 Calgary Hitmen $68.95 M
2 Edmonton Oil Kings $51.06 M
3 Vancouver Giants $37.94 M
4 Portland Winterhawks $36.70 M
5 Saskatoon Blades $13.97 M
6 Spokane Chiefs $13.13 M
7 Regina Pats $12.14 M
8 Kelowna Rockets $7.37 M
9 Everett Silvertips $6.48 M
10 Seattle Thunderbirds $5.81 M
11 Red Deer Rebels $5.69 M
12 Kamloops Blazers $5.39 M
13 Lethbridge Hurricanes $5.25 M
14 Victoria Royals $5.03 M
15 Tri-City Americans $4.65 M
16 Prince George Cougars $4.52 M
17 Medicine Hat Tigers $3.77 M
18 Brandon Wheat Kings $2.90 M
19 Prince Albert Raiders $2.21 M
20 Moose Jaw Warriors $4.09 M
21 Kootenay Ice $1.21 M
22 Swift Current Broncos $970 K

https://www.tsn.ca/chl-franchises-wo...study-1.522306

According to this article from 2015 they were. It probably fluctuates from year to year based on success on the ice, but teams like the Hitmen and Oil Kings have a massive advantage being owned by NHL teams and being operated out of those rinks.

Operating expenses would be pretty minimal because they can piggyback off the big club for everything. They might get extra revenue from all the luxury boxes if the main club gives them a % of that for accounting purposes.

I'm sure these guys are cooking the books as much as they can get away with to show as little net profit as possible every year just like farmers. Why pay tax when you can avoid it?

[Reggie Dunlop]

Yes, that's the study I remember reading.

[Titan2]

Originally Posted by Locke

...

or its brewskies and nose candy and a real early checkout.

But I am sure there is a downside too.

[Titan2]

I'm not sure what the answer is but it is totally time for a discussion about things are done.

The idea that 15-16 year olds are better off in Jr. A than a local team seems farfetched to me.

Maybe it applies to the exceptional players but not sure it matters for the rest. Maybe have an exceptional draft and those players have to be on the roster? Lots of options but we should have the discussion.

That's how it has always been done is rarely the right answer.