Ipsos Reid poll has Cons ahead in Ontario

[transplant99]

Geez Cheese that article looks like the infamous ads that the Liberal's published in the last election where they tried to scare people, and had a "Hidden agenda"

Cap'n...haven't you heard?

That whole "Cons are evil" thing is all made up....by the Cons!!

remember this beauty?

What I don't get is why those on the right suppose that people don't support the conservatives simply b/c they have been brainwashed into 'Cons are scary'. Seems like an excuse made by a party that simply does not have the pulse of the majority and can't understand why. There are plenty of valid reasons to vote against either Liberals or Conservatives - I don't see the need to make belittling assumptions for those that disagree. Besides, isn't the biggest reason you all vote con is that your daddy did!!

and this...

My point is that the scary thing is, IMO, manufactured and reeks of being an excuse. I don't know a single person who says they won't vote conservative because they are 'scary'. I do know many who won't vote conservative for a wide variety of other reasons. In fact, you can see the conservatives figuring things out to an extent b/c every one of their policy announcements thus far in the campaign is centrist or even left leaning.

And then this...

That's certainly how I feel. I don't find the conservatives to be scary, and I don't think they have a hidden agenda. They just don't believe in the type of Canada I believe in. I think that can be said for many Canadians. No need for all the BS excuses and digging for deeper causes.

It's all made up. By Conservatives. The Fibs say so.

Funny then that the lead person at a very neutral polling site said this....just a day or two ago.

"If you look at these numbers today, the Conservatives would have a minority," Ipsos Reid president Darrell Bricker said in an interview yesterday, noting the Conservatives were nine points behind the Liberals two weeks ago

Mr. Harper has managed to avoid looking "unreasonable and reactionary" in this campaign, Mr. Bricker said, suggesting that will make it difficult for the Liberals to scare Canadians into voting Liberal, as they did in 2004.

Bricker has to be a Con...NO other explanation!!!

Just ask the Fiberal supporters...they will spin it any way needed.

[Winsor_Pilates]

You're right Transplant. The only reason people don't vote for Conservatives is because they've all been tricked into being scared. It's not at all possible that someone like myself could simply disagree with important portions of their policy. Because of course, their policy is absolutely perfect for absolutely every single person of the earth. No possible way anyone could disagree, no freekin way!!! We're all just chicken shinguards!!!!

I'll admit that some people may be convinced by those sorts of tricks, but that goes both ways. There are always gonna be voters on both sides who vote based on simple catch phrases and slander. People like yourself, who can't discuss any issues without flinging ****. People who use sarcasm, and personal attacks instead of discussion and thought.

How does my explanation of why I don't support the Conservatives become one of your beauties? Do you think I'm lying, or perhaps you just know my motivations better then I do?

And it's amazing that you include my quote as evidence "fiberal support", when i said nothing about the Liberal party and have never voted for the Liberals in my life.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Cap'n...haven't you heard?

That whole "Cons are evil" thing is all made up....by the Cons!!

remember this beauty?



and this...



And then this...




It's all made up. By Conservatives. The Fibs say so.

Funny then that the lead person at a very neutral polling site said this....just a day or two ago.



Bricker has to be a Con...NO other explanation!!!

Just ask the Fiberal supporters...they will spin it any way needed.

The Liberals made up the whole "Conservatives are Scary" business because it worked and for a lot of people it's true. To liberals, the country being run by a bunch of social conservatives is scary.

What is so hard to grasp about this? Small "l" liberals don't want conservatives running the country for exactly the same reasons that conservative people don't want socially liberal people running the country --because they disagree with what they believe in. It's as simple as that. It's not spin, stupidity or something clever like the "Fiberals" pulling the wool over the eyes of dummies in Ontario, it's just common sense.

[Lurch]

I'll try to keep this at a little higher level than Transplant - shouldn't be too hard.

Conservatives are scary is a Liberal ad campaign - apparently very effective among small c conservatives. Conservatives continually whine that the reason they lose is b/c "Fiberal Spin", conservative boogeyman, etc. The Liberals throw it out there, and conservative apologists jump all over it. As I said, I have yet to meet a person who fell hook line and sinker for an ad campaign as you allege - regardless, its an ad campaign and to call it spin is beyond pointless, as that is an ads function. Perhaps its a newsflash for you, but I can bet the conservative 'spin machine' will soon be in full flight with "Liberals are corrupt" ADS. And here is the point: if the Liberals lose, they will make the EXCUSE that negative ads from the cons mislead voters about their record. Sound familiar??? I know it's not a clean cut as flapping around and shouting "Fiberal Spin Machine", but I hope my point is clearer this time.

The real reason Liberals dominate electorally IMO, is that 70% of voters (approximately) sit to the left of the conservatives. The NDP and Bloc are both left of the Liberals, so for the right to expect to govern on any consistent basis is ludicrous unless they move their platform to the middle. They are doing that in this election, and failed to do so in previous incarnations. Chances are, in order to be elected, the Conservatives have to become basically indistinguishable from the Liberals. Not sure if they are there yet, but definitely getting closer.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Lurch

I'll try to keep this at a little higher level than Transplant - shouldn't be too hard.

...and failed miserably in the very first sentence. How ironic.

[Lurch]

...and failed miserably in the very first sentence. How ironic.

True enough. I should have just went with my first instinct and littered the entire post with personal insults, mindless repitition, misleading quotes, etc and kept this thread consistent and true to the spirit of politics.

[northernflame]

The real reason Liberals dominate electorally IMO, is that 70% of voters (approximately) sit to the left of the conservatives. The NDP and Bloc are both left of the Liberals, so for the right to expect to govern on any consistent basis is ludicrous unless they move their platform to the middle. They are doing that in this election, and failed to do so in previous incarnations. Chances are, in order to be elected, the Conservatives have to become basically indistinguishable from the Liberals. Not sure if they are there yet, but definitely getting closer.

Bingo!

I would go even farther and suggest that, historically speaking, today's liberals are actually quite conservative. In fact, they are a little right-of-centre: Just far enough right to capture the majority of the left votes and enough of the right votes to win.

The problem for the conservitves is that to win, they need to actually move slightly to the left of the liberals. Something that is very hard for them to do given their professed ideology.

Harper is making inroads this time around however.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Lurch

True enough. I should have just went with my first instinct and littered the entire post with personal insults, mindless repitition, misleading quotes, etc and kept this thread consistent and true to the spirit of politics.

LOL

Personal insults? Where? Or are you just being a good Lib and making stuff up again?

Misleading quotes? If they are misleading, it's because the authors mislead them...they are word for word.

Originally Posted by WinsorPilates

You're right Transplant. The only reason people don't vote for Conservatives is because they've all been tricked into being scared. It's not at all possible that someone like myself could simply disagree with important portions of their policy.

Where did I say that YOU are voting against the Cons because they are scary?

No where. I said that the Liberal party HAS used scare tactics in the past to try and sway voters. Others countered that by saying it was all made up by the Cons.

Clearly that ISNT the case.

Comprende?

[Lurch]

For starters, you grabbed the wrong quote from the wrong person, but that is hardly the point. If you don't find your tone ignorant and insulting, that is your choice to make. Your mindless drone of "Fiberal supporter" and "spin" etc is beyond tiresome and is a juvenile attempt to paint people as less informed or intelligent than yourself, the enlightened conservative and resident wit.

As for reading comprehension, try to get the whole message myself and others have written. I can't see anywhere people said conservatives made up the scary thing - rather, I simply said it is a poor cop out for why the conservatives lost. Large difference. You'll note on this board it is the conservatives that continually blather on about the 'scary' issue - I've yet to see anyone say 'the cons scare me' other than a con who says 'we'd win except the liberals say we're scary'. Maybe this is clear, but I'm somehow certain the message won't get there.

Focal point: the idea that the cons lost the last election b/c of negative liberal adverting about 'scary' is a loser's excuse, and yes, is put forth by the cons. If you want to take this as the cons making up the scary thing, well, all the power to you.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Cheese

The LEFT in Canada is the NDP...the Liberals are Central...or have the ability to move left or right of Centre dependant on the people. So whats the point?

You know everytime I read one of your posts I realize that you really aren't as bright as you pretend to be.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by peter12

You know everytime I read one of your posts I realize that you really aren't as bright as you pretend to be.

and that makes you what? a genius? Maybe youd like to expand on your hypothesis?

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Where did I say that YOU are voting against the Cons because they are scary?

No where. I said that the Liberal party HAS used scare tactics in the past to try and sway voters. Others countered that by saying it was all made up by the Cons.

Clearly that ISNT the case.

Comprende?

So why did you quote me?
If your issue is with what "others" said about the Cons making it up, perhaps you should just quote those "others" next time.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Geez Cheese that article looks like the infamous ads that the Liberal's published in the last election where they tried to scare people, and had a "Hidden agenda"

I could sit here and write about the evils of the Liberal's and thier hidden agenda to take control of the raising of future voters, and thier soft on crimes view on the world, and it would be about as legit as the article that you've got up there.

If you look at the current Conservative Platform its far more Liberal then what the Liberal's are offering, but thats because the Liberal's don't have a platform or an idea until they steal one.

thats what it was Crunch...I mentioned that specifically. It also mentioned specific problems of the other parties...but I broke this one out specifically to underline what people see as the evil Conservatives. Nothing much has changed since then.

[Shawnski]

Harper made a pretty good speach today. He is sounding and acting much more stately.

By the way, for those that might be interested, Lowell Green had a great show on CPAC this morning, and it is just starting to replay again. If you tune in, there is a real wing nut that calls it at the end. It was hilarious.

Direct link.

http://www.cpac.ca/asx/cpac2e.asx

[transplant99]

If you don't find your tone ignorant and insulting, that is your choice to make.

And there we have it.

You did make it up.

I can't see anywhere people said conservatives made up the scary thing

-

Really???

Seems like an excuse made by a party that simply does not have the pulse of the majority

My point is that the scary thing is, IMO, manufactured and reeks of being an excuse.

The quotes aren't made up..

You'll note on this board it is the conservatives that continually blather on about the 'scary' issue

And I clearly and unequivocally have pointed you to a source that is involved in this stuff as a living who clearly STATED...

Mr. Harper has managed to avoid looking "unreasonable and reactionary" in this campaign, Mr. Bricker said, suggesting that will make it difficult for the Liberals to scare Canadians into voting Liberal, as they did in 2004.

And finally this...

I'll try to keep this at a little higher level than Transplant - shouldn't be too hard.

Intimating i have resorted to personal insults which I have asked you to please point out. And you can't because I haven't.

Yet YOU start with this....

Your mindless drone of "Fiberal supporter" and "spin" etc is beyond tiresome and is a juvenile attempt to paint people as less informed or intelligent than yourself, the enlightened conservative and resident wit.

Mirror time Mr. holier than thou!!

The Fiberals is not an insult to anyopne in particular, well maybe Paul Martin and his cabinet, because they HAVE lied, cheated and stolen.

Where is the "spin" in that?



Keep on truckin though!!!

[Sylvanfan]

Actually Cheese's statement about the Liberals being a more central party makes a lot of sense. Ontario is the swing province that holds a lot of political clout. I think one of the reasons that the Liberals have held that province is that they managed to present themselves as central enough to maintain power there. Provincially it is a province that has shown that it will change governments. IIRC the NDP, Conservatives, and Liberals have all governed that province in the past 20 years. Whereas in Alberta the Cons are on like what a 30 plus year run?

Politics is a game of sales for the most part. You have to sell the people on something be it how bad the other guy is or how good you are. People who are passionate about politics are like people who are passionate about music to me. The most popular music out there is panned by those who are usually really passionate as being mainstream crap thats not that good. The real music is lesser know independent stuff not being broadcast by the big players in Canadian music. Be it right or wrong, the mainstream stuff is what most people know and what they'll buy because it's what they hear. Most people can't be bothered to put that type of effort into politics either (whether they should or not). As a result they can be influenced to vote on what they hear in the mainstream media, and not probe all that deep into the whole scheme of things.

Those who post in these forms be it if they are Conservative or Liberal can sit here and fling mud at each other all day long. These appear to be the people who have the passion to dig into politics and follow it closely. You can argue all day, but I don't think anyone is going to switch sides. Elections are about getting the people on the fence to join your team. The mainstream people who supposedly know nothing. The Liberals have been able to stay central enough to attract these people in Ontario while the Conservatives have had a tough time shaking that reform Right Wing hard line Christian image. If it wasn't true the Liberals wouldn't have been winning in that province since 1993. The Conservatives have tried to centralize themselves a bit more, and as a result do appear to be gaining ground in Ontario. Rather than fight each other, you should be trying to appeal to the undecided. Thats where the fight is won.

[Lurch]

And there we have it.

You did make it up.

Make what up exactly - something you read between the lines from my response? I think your posts are rude and insulting - I doubt I said anything to the contrary, but if so I'm sure you'll be able to dig it up.

As for the mirror time, I have no problem with acknowledging that my responses to you are much different than responses to other people. You've earned it, IMO though I see I went a little overboard in my haste and distaste - my bad. I see I'm not quite the master of impersonal insults I should be, though I know I can quickly learn from the many shining examples.

As for the rest of the quotes, I'm tired of beating my head against the wall, but once more for novelty's sake. Yes, I believe the 'conservatives are scary' is an excuse for losing made up by the loser's that lost the last election. You'll note that the conservatives (our at least those I hear and read) didn't say "our policy was out of touch with the majority" but rather "Liberal scare tactics cost us". Despite this, the conservatives have changed their policy towards the left - why is that? To counteract the scare tactics??? Is this how conservative policy is made - in response to ads? I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt you apparently are not that conservative policy has shifted in an explicit recognition they were too far right to be elected. I know this point is somewhat oblique, but I'm sure you can figure it out. (see, I'm learning!!)