[Game Takes] Hawks 4 Flames 3

[atb]

Considering the time of year and the importance of the game I found Kadri's effort especially appalling. It was pure lack of effort and not wanting to take a hit. What makes this worse is he was brought in to be a 'warrior' type with the experience that should make him shine at this time of year. It's just unbelievable to see those types of plays by that player on a Sutter coached team.

This team has been just so tough to watch. This season is the least amount of Flames games I've watched ever. There are just so few bright spots on the team. Really hope that changes next year.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

We just keep having the same argument.

Now you're bringing in untold analysts to back up a theory that has no factual data.

Every team turns the puck over. When they do they end up with either shots in close (they're counted) or odd man chances that create high danger chances (they're counted).

There is no evidence that the Flames have found a way to be higher danger than high danger.

And even if they were ... lets give you that for fun for a second ... do you really think they've found a way to be so much worse in generating high danger against than the average high danger chance that it excuses goaltenders that are ranked 29th in the league in save percentage?

Seriously?

There is evidence. It’s on the ice in front of us all, game in and game out

But it’s not simple things that are measured and are factored in to models

I point again to wondering why the goalies are so much more effective behind Backlund who is +20 than behind Kadri who is -18?

The system works, some guys don’t want to do the hard things that make a difference imo

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by atb

Considering the time of year and the importance of the game I found Kadri's effort especially appalling. It was pure lack of effort and not wanting to take a hit. What makes this worse is he was brought in to be a 'warrior' type with the experience that should make him shine at this time of year. It's just unbelievable to see those types of plays by that player on a Sutter coached team.

This team has been just so tough to watch. This season is the least amount of Flames games I've watched ever. There are just so few bright spots on the team. Really hope that changes next year.

Kadri's lack of effort last night might have been the most despicable display this year, in a season chalk-full of unpalatable performances.

I was screaming to have him benched after the first one, but then there were the second and third, each more maddening than the prior, and yet he never missed a shift, and was out there disrupting the play in the final minute.

I was disgusted, frankly.

Seriously, if I'm Treliving, I move him in the summer, regardless of return. No way I would allow that on my team.

[Enoch Root]

The Flames didn't deserve to win that game. Full stop. None the less, it was yet another performance from Markstrom that simply wasn't good enough. We have had the 2nd best goalie in probably 60 to70 of the 78 games so far.

You simply can't win when you're regularly out-goalied. Regardless of everything else.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The Flames didn't deserve to win that game. Full stop. None the less, it was yet another performance from Markstrom that simply wasn't good enough. We have had the 2nd best goalie in probably 60 to70 of the 78 games so far.

You simply can't win when you're regularly out-goalied. Regardless of everything else.

Goalies don’t face the same shots

I didn’t see Chicago handing the puck to the Flames under no pressure

Their goalie had an easier night

They didn’t play great but the loss was avoidable if 91 doesn’t simply give the puck away

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Goalies don’t face the same shots

I didn’t see Chicago handing the puck to the Flames under no pressure

Their goalie had an easier night

They didn’t play great but the loss was avoidable if 91 doesn’t simply give the puck away

The game wasn't even close to being all on Markstrom (thanks Kadri) but I recall the Hawks goalie making some bigger saves than Markstrom did. Every goal against was a "fair" goal due to the quality of chance but man a 6 million dollar goalie should be expected to save some quality chances.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

There is evidence. It’s on the ice in front of us all, game in and game out

But it’s not simple things that are measured and are factored in to models

I point again to wondering why the goalies are so much more effective behind Backlund who is +20 than behind Kadri who is -18?

The system works, some guys don’t want to do the hard things that make a difference imo

Better goaltending and Backlund is +35 and Kadri is -3. The fact that some forwards are playing significantly better than others is kind of independent of goaltending, no?

I certainly agree with your last comment, I don’t see a system problem and some players on this team are lacking. Effort isn’t just pumping your legs, it’s also mental focus. A huge problem with certain players.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

The game wasn't even close to being all on Markstrom (thanks Kadri) but I recall the Hawks goalie making some bigger saves than Markstrom did. Every goal against was a "fair" goal due to the quality of chance but man a 6 million dollar goalie should be expected to save some quality chances.

I don’t think that’s the case at all. I can’t recall a single 2 on 1 by the Hawks. The Hawks had 4 themselves. No breakaways or man alone in front goals like the Hawks got.

Calgary’s best chance was the Hanifin goal which went 5 hole, and was therefore quite saveable. The biggest save for the Hawks was a fairly distant Lindholm shot.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Goalies don’t face the same shots

I didn’t see Chicago handing the puck to the Flames under no pressure

Their goalie had an easier night

They didn’t play great but the loss was avoidable if 91 doesn’t simply give the puck away

You have become a very tiresome one-trick pony.

We've all read your argument 100 times. Maybe at some point, you'll open your mind to the possibility that there is some merit to the other side as well.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You have become a very tiresome one-trick pony.

We've all read your argument 100 times. Maybe at some point, you'll open your mind to the possibility that there is some merit to the other side as well.

I don’t have a clue what you mean

Both goalies in a game face identical chances? That’s wrong and just silly

And I don’t see any need for the unnecessary insults. No clue who you are or what opinions you hold, really, but if you want to talk about the Flames, rather than me, that’s why I’m here

And in fact Darryl tonight said Marky was a rock and has been for 6 weeks now

Maybe you want to take that up with him

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I don’t have a clue what you mean

Both goalies in a game face identical chances? That’s wrong and just silly

And I don’t see any need for the unnecessary insults. No clue who you are or what opinions you hold, really, but if you want to talk about the Flames, rather than me, that’s why I’m here

And in fact Darryl tonight said Marky was a rock and has been for 6 weeks now

Maybe you want to take that up with him

No one said that.

The problem is that you absolutely refuse to admit that Markstrom has been poor, and attempt to make it all about the difference in quality of shots faced. While there have been some grade A chances against him, you take it to an extreme that no one can take seriously.

He hasn't been good - even factoring in shot quality.

As for the Sutter comment, LOL - like we should ever take his comments to the media at face value. He will always say the opposite of what the reporter wants him to say (and I am not presenting that as any evidence that he thinks Markstrom was bad, just saying we can't take his comments at face value).

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

There is evidence. It’s on the ice in front of us all, game in and game out

But it’s not simple things that are measured and are factored in to models

I point again to wondering why the goalies are so much more effective behind Backlund who is +20 than behind Kadri who is -18?

The system works, some guys don’t want to do the hard things that make a difference imo

It's only evidence if it's evaluated.

So sure ... get 5 of your buddies, go back and watch 40 games for all 32 teams, and then get back to me with your analyisis.

Otherwise it's a subjective opinion, and that's all it is.

The plus minus differential is pretty easily supported by the same data. Nazem Kadri has the highest expected goals /60 against on the Flames this year, so naturally more actual goals would go in.

He's -9 vs expected. Backlund is +6 vs expected which is far less of a range. than +20 and -18.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I don’t have a clue what you mean

Both goalies in a game face identical chances? That’s wrong and just silly

And I don’t see any need for the unnecessary insults. No clue who you are or what opinions you hold, really, but if you want to talk about the Flames, rather than me, that’s why I’m here

And in fact Darryl tonight said Marky was a rock and has been for 6 weeks now

Maybe you want to take that up with him

Nobody has ever said the bolded above.

You want us to a believe a model that counts events and assigns a degree of danger to them based on historical averages in order to determine what a goalie should stop is giving the Flames goaltenders a harder time than the goaltenders on the other 31 teams.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

It's only evidence if it's evaluated.

So sure ... get 5 of your buddies, go back and watch 40 games for all 32 teams, and then get back to me with your analyisis.

Otherwise it's a subjective opinion, and that's all it is.

The plus minus differential is pretty easily supported by the same data. Nazem Kadri has the highest expected goals /60 against on the Flames this year, so naturally more actual goals would go in.

He's -9 vs expected. Backlund is +6 vs expected which is far less of a range. than +20 and -18.

Now you are on to something

Might be worth thinking about that -9


It’s odd that the goalies play differently for these guys

One of whom is known for the egregious turnovers and lack of compete in atoning for his errors. To me.


And the xGA thing … let’s be clear that having a relatively high xGA is not a good thing - it’s part of the problem!

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Now you are on to something

Might be worth thinking about that -9


It’s odd that the goalies play differently for these guys

One of whom is known for the egregious turnovers and lack of compete in atoning for his errors. To me.


And the xGA thing … let’s be clear that having a relatively high xGA is not a good thing - it’s part of the problem!

There will always be luck variability in a differential between actual and expected goals. It's talked about all the time.

A great player can out score his expected.

In this case I think weak defensive play can out score on the defensive side as well.

So I wouldn't say goalies play differently ... I'd say some players get the save some seasons, some don't. But how they play certainly contributes to that.

And not sure on your final point, never said anything but. I literally laid out that Kadri's high xGA is why his GA is so high.